Need advice 4 best method to Run a 150 Scout Dist. Derby

Debates and discussions on the various race scheduling methods that can be used and their fairness and accuracy in determining the winners.
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derbydaddy
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Need advice 4 best method to Run a 150 Scout Dist. Derby

Post by derbydaddy » Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:08 pm

Background: Our Pack runs it's Derbies on a sleek 6-lane alum. finish track with electronic scoring (place, not time). We've used Grand Prix's software, using the lane rotation method, to handle 75 boys. This seems to work great...because each Rank is no bigger than 20 to 25 Scouts.

Now our District is planning their race. They have continued to use double elim. for 150 Scouts.

Our plan is for our Pack to help run the District race with our track and race management computer and software (using the Lane Rotation Method). My concern is that in the past there are around 50 Scouts racing as Tigers, 50 as Wolves, 30 as Bears, and 20 as Webelos 1 and 2...

The question: What method is the best way to facilitate a Rank with more than 20 Scouts? (Is there a way to run the 50+ racers in a rank into heats?)

Thanks



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Re: Need advice 4 best method to Run a 150 Scout Dist. Derb

Post by gpraceman » Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:43 pm

derbydaddy wrote:Background: Our Pack runs it's Derbies on a sleek 6-lane alum. finish track with electronic scoring (place, not time). We've used Grand Prix's software, using the lane rotation method, to handle 75 boys. This seems to work great...because each Rank is no bigger than 20 to 25 Scouts.

Now our District is planning their race. They have continued to use double elim. for 150 Scouts.

Our plan is for our Pack to help run the District race with our track and race management computer and software (using the Lane Rotation Method). My concern is that in the past there are around 50 Scouts racing as Tigers, 50 as Wolves, 30 as Bears, and 20 as Webelos 1 and 2...

The question: What method is the best way to facilitate a Rank with more than 20 Scouts? (Is there a way to run the 50+ racers in a rank into heats?)

Thanks
Since you are running GrandPrix Race Manager, I recommend that you run a Modified Lane Rotation chart for each rank. Start a new round, advancing the top 6 or 7 racers from the rank and then use a Complimentary Perfect-N chart (CPN) to determine the winners of the trophies.

We just ran our district race this last weekend with this scheme and it worked out well. We had a total of 200 boys, a 6 lane track and 90 minutes to run each rank. For each rank, we were able to complete all of the heats with time to spare. We actually could have accommodated quite a few more boys for each rank (we actually slowed the pace down since we were cranking out the heats too fast). Every boy got to race at least 6 times (once on each lane), not the two and out that many experience with double elimination.


Randy Lisano
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Stan Pope
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Re: Need advice 4 best method to Run a 150 Scout Dist. Derb

Post by Stan Pope » Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:50 pm

Lotsa alternatives.

First, is you pack's track geometry (length, height, curvature) very similar to what most of the other packs in the district use? If not, you should not use it, even if it is "sleek and new". It gives your pack's scouts an advantage over scouts from other packs.

So, assuming that yor pack's track has typical goemetry, then you can set about evalutaing prospective racing methods.

1. PPN Chart preliminary screening; PN/CPN finals.

For each group, find out how many speed places need to be identified. Choose a number approximately twice that number to be selected by the screening and identify a PN chart that serves approximately that number.

Run all the scouts in a category through a 1 or 2 round PPN chart, Tally total points, pick highest scores for finals.

Prliminary racing would require either as many heats as there are scouts or twice as many heats. This would be 6 or 12 runs for each scout.

Advantages: Pretty accurate without singling out the slowest car. Conbtrolled duration.

Disadvantage: No way to fit late arrivals into chart. Many who don't make the finals don't stay to see the finals.

2. No-chart Multiple Elim

This uses the same concept as double elimination, but probably has some distinct differences in details of operation. Usual charted DE is nasty because of byes. And, place trophies beyond 2nd are pretty inaccurate.

Our district's move from 2-lane DE to 3-lane 5E (we give trophies for 5 places in each grade) was pretty painless. More racing for each scout, about the same amount of time for the parents.

Advantages: Late arrivals can be integrated into race with minor tardiness penalty. Best cars race more. Heats run fast because you don't have to get specific racers into specific predetermined lanes ... boys present queue to race, draw for lane, race, etc.

Disadvantages: Some boys leave after 5 races, some leave after 6 races, ... Sometimes few are left watching to see the 5 finalists race off for the trophies.


Stan
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Re: Need advice 4 best method to Run a 150 Scout Dist. Derb

Post by gpraceman » Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:54 pm

BTW - My recomendation was assuming that you were using times scoring. If you use points scoring, then I would recommend the Perfect-N type charts for the first round. I was also assuming that you have 3 trophies per rank. If more, then you would need to up the number of finalists (see Suggested Race Format - this is also in the GPRM Quick Start Tutorial)


Randy Lisano
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Re: Need advice 4 best method to Run a 150 Scout Dist. Derb

Post by Stan Pope » Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:02 pm

Sorry, Randy, I was pecking away at the kbd at the same time you were.

He says he isn't running times... just places. None-the-less a PPN chart works to do good preliminary. Good since it is unlikely that there is a CPN chart really close to his actual number of racers. I think that your software would support this mode of operation very nicely.

For district races, I like methods that don't depend on having all of the racers there on time. Especially in semi-rural districts, folks are going to places that aren't very familiar, and I don't like to turn anyone away just because they had trouble finding the place!


Stan
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Re: Need advice 4 best method to Run a 150 Scout Dist. Derb

Post by derbydaddy » Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:15 am

Good advice on both counts.

We need to advance the top 6 racers from each Rank on to the Council race...After running through the software. I think I'm going to break each Rank into groups of 12, and then run the top 3 racers from each group in the "Grand Finals" for that Rank. My thinking is that way racing will be consolidated into a shorter time segments for clusters of Scouts, and late shows can race in later groups.

Using the PPN generator on the software program should do the trick.

In regards to the track design, the geom. is similar to standard Pack tracks.

Many thanks!



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Re: Need advice 4 best method to Run a 150 Scout Dist. Derb

Post by gpraceman » Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:24 am

derbydaddy wrote:We need to advance the top 6 racers from each Rank on to the Council race...After running through the software. I think I'm going to break each Rank into groups of 12, and then run the top 3 racers from each group in the "Grand Finals" for that Rank. My thinking is that way racing will be consolidated into a shorter time segments for clusters of Scouts, and late shows can race in later groups.
That is a good idea, if you will be accommodating late comers. You will need to setup a separate data file for each rank, since there can only be one Grand Finals per data file.


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Re: Need advice 4 best method to Run a 150 Scout Dist. Derb

Post by Stan Pope » Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:32 pm

derbydaddy wrote:We need to advance the top 6 racers from each Rank on to the Council race...After running through the software. I think I'm going to break each Rank into groups of 12, and then run the top 3 racers from each group in the "Grand Finals" for that Rank. My thinking is that way racing will be consolidated into a shorter time segments for clusters of Scouts, and late shows can race in later groups.
Lessee, if you have a total of 20 in an age bracket, then group A would be 12, of which 3 would advance to finals, and group B would be 8, of which 3 would advance to finals, and all in the finals would qualify to council races. What is wrong here? Hint ... more than one problem with this setup!

BTW, 12 is usually not a very good number for PPN charts ... odd numbers are usually better. But check out the chart quality that PPN gives for the track setup you plan.

On your track, I raised the issue because most aluminum tracks are longer than most wooden tracks. Length is an important part of geometry.


Stan
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Re: Need advice 4 best method to Run a 150 Scout Dist. Derb

Post by Cory » Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:27 am

Stan Pope wrote: Lessee, if you have a total of 20 in an age bracket, then group A would be 12, of which 3 would advance to finals, and group B would be 8, of which 3 would advance to finals, and all in the finals would qualify to council races. What is wrong here? Hint ... more than one problem with this setup!
Alright, Stan, no one is biting.

1. Using the system above, you will never get the six fastest cars to Council unless those six cars happen to be split 3-3 across the two groups. If the assignment of cars to groups is random, then about 70% of the time you have no chance of getting it exactly right.

2. Picking only the top three from each group means that about 88% of the time you get the fastest three from a group. This error source can be reduced by picking the top four (96% accurate) or the top five (almost 99% accurate).

Six cars is a lot of cars to identify. I'd be tempted to do something like this:

* Round 1 - All the cars, 1-round PPN chart, cars 11 thru N are eliminated, cars 4 thru 10 go to Round 2, cars 1 thru 3 get to skip Round 2, automatically earning a spot in the Finals

* Round 2 - cars 4 through 10, 1-round PN or 2-round CPN, cars 1 thru 3 go to Finals

* Finals - top 3 cars from Round 1, top 3 cars from Round 2, 2-round CPN (7 car chart w/ a dummy car)

Thoughts?



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Re: Need advice 4 best method to Run a 150 Scout Dist. Derb

Post by Stan Pope » Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:33 am

Thank you, Cory!

Note that your accuracy numbers assume random distribution of participants. I think that it is likely that it will be skewed ... boys with really good cars (or cars that they think are really good) showing up early, ending in the first group.

You "nailed" everything else that I had in mind! :)


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Re: Need advice 4 best method to Run a 150 Scout Dist. Derb

Post by Stan Pope » Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:41 am

Regarding your 3-stage plan ... I think that it works. I think that you get to the same place, possibly with better accuracy, with a 13-car PN or CPN final involving the top 13 cars from the prelim. (I haven't done the analysis to confirm the accuracy estimate.

The thing that brings this to mind is that the prelim is a PPN chart and will have some placement inaccuracies. These inaccuracies could work to give an inferior car a pass into the council races.

The 2-stage approach works by including more finalists than places to be determined. (A 7-car final is not attractive to me, because one car gets singled out as NOT going to the council races.)


Stan
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