Your opinion on race method.

Debates and discussions on the various race scheduling methods that can be used and their fairness and accuracy in determining the winners.
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NealOnWheels
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Your opinion on race method.

Post by NealOnWheels »

I want to get the opinion of you all before I approach our pack committee on revising our race methods.

Our pack uses a two lane track for an overall pack race of about 35 boys and den races of about 8 boys each.

The pack race is a double elimination race where the first bracket is run in its entirety before beginning the second bracket. The loser of the second bracket is awarded third place. The winners of the two brackets race off until first and second can be determined.

The den races are a single elmination. The winner of the bracket is awarded first place and through a process I don't fully understand two other cars raceoff for second and third places.

In the pack race my son's car lost in the final heat of the first bracket. After running six heats his car entered the second braket racing against cars having run only one heat. His car was eliminated midway in the second bracket to the car that he beat in the very first heat in the first bracket.

In his den race he got first place.

He clearly had one of the fastest cars and I think he may have placed better under a different system.

As far as my son is concerned the race was run fairly. He was thrilled with the race. He made a comment on the way home that he had so much fun building the car with me and could not wait for next year to do it again. He even wanted to build a track in the basement so he would not have to wait. Mom rolled her eyes to that idea.

Overall I was happy with the race because of my son's attitude.

I want to know what you all think of the fairness of this system and suggestions I should take to the pack committee.
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Stan Pope
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Re: Your opinion on race method.

Post by Stan Pope »

"Fairness" appears adequate, although we don't have enough information to really make such a judgement. I like to differentiate "fairness" and "accuracy". "Fairness" is an emotion-charged concept, usually associated with someone trying to cheat another. It has also been used as an attribute of random processes to measure how well the random device performs relative to expectation.

I think that your question is really about the "accuracy" with which places are identified. For this question, I think you have provided enough.

Single elimination really only does a reasonably accurate job of identifying 1st place. There is a significant probability that the loser of the last race is less than the second fastest car in the races. The loser of the last race might be matched against the last loser of the winner's bracket to race off for second place, but this, too, includes a significant error probability. Even first place can be error prone if the track lanes are not well matched.

Similar error analysis applies to double elimination racing. 1st and 2nd place designations include some error probability due mainly to lane differences. Accuracy of other place designations have increasing error.

If these error probabilities are distributed to racers in a random fashion, then "fairness" is preserved.

I think that there are more accurate methods for discovering the fastest cars. I also think that there are methods that give more racing to more of the participants. Both are worthwhile.

Multiple elimination (e.g. 4 or 5 loss elim) assures each racer of more heats and better accuracy for 2, 3, etc. places. Points-final-standings based on PPN (Young&Pope) charts have similar values.
Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
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Stan Pope
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Re: Your opinion on race method.

Post by Stan Pope »

NealOnWheels wrote:He made a comment on the way home that he had so much fun building the car with me and could not wait for next year to do it again. He even wanted to build a track in the basement so he would not have to wait. Mom rolled her eyes to that idea.
You have a rare opportunity to teach some serious science! Run with it! Be aware that you may have to learn a bit about experimental design and physics, but it is worth it!
Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
cheelwheels
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Re: Your opinion on race method.

Post by cheelwheels »

This is my 1st post

One of the best methods I have ever ran into was a head to head drag type racing system with multiple heats. All cubs cars were equal. They raced head to head 2 at atime. Single elimination until a heat winner was establised. All cubs raced again in heat 2, 3, 4, etc ubtil winners of ea. heet was established. Fials was adouble elim. of all heat winners.
What I liked about it was that it went really quick and all cubs raced multiple times more than anyu other method I have seen and there interest seem to increase as the eveniong prgressed. What do you think?

Sorry about the lousy typing.
WERE IT NOT FOR GRACE WE WOULD LOSE THE ONLY RACE THAT REALLY COUNTS
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Stan Pope
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Re: Your opinion on race method.

Post by Stan Pope »

The series of single elimination races is conceptually the same as multiple elimination. (Multiple elim would not have a winner involved in subsequent elim rounds.) I would run the finals differently, giving recognition to the better record of the earlier "heat" winners. My preference is for a winner's ladder in which the lowest ranked two racers meet with the lower ranked needing to win 2 to advance. Each heat lane assignment is based on random draw.
Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
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