Thinking of Next Year...

Debates and discussions on the various race scheduling methods that can be used and their fairness and accuracy in determining the winners.
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kbimler
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Thinking of Next Year...

Post by kbimler »

OK, here is the issue. Next year, I will be in charge of the committee that is running our Pack PWD. I need ideas on a better method that what we are using. Currently, the pack is running a slightly modified Double Elim. I will not go into details about the modification, but lets just say that it is causing some issues with even 2nd place being accurately determined. Therefore, I am looking for better ideas.

- Two lane track. There does not appear to be a "better" lane.
- No timing system, but there is an electronic finish line.
- Roughly 20-30 cars will be raced.
- Award 1st, 2nd, 3rd place overall. No other awards are determined by actual racing.

Any and all suggestions would be appreciated. If there is some justification to one system over the other that would be appreciated as well. I am sure that I may have some explaining to do when I try to change the way the derby has been run for 20+ years.
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Stan Pope
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Re: Thinking of Next Year...

Post by Stan Pope »

At least go "Quadruple Elimination" (4 heats per racer, minimum) or maybe "Quintuple Elimination" (5 heats per racer, mnimum). Either will give good accuracy for your 3rd place trophy.

Or, do points-based final standings race using PPN. With 2 lanes you can get 2, 4, 6, ... heats per racer depending on the number of rounds that you run. Since each racer gets one opponent per heat, it takes a lot of heats if you want each racer to race against everyone else. You could run everyone for 4 or 5 rounds (8 opponents or 10 each) and take the highest ranked 7 racers to a 3-round finals (6 opponents each)

DE struggles to get 2 trophies awarded correctly! Our district races used to award 5 place trophies with a DE! None of the trophy winners were slow, but many faster cars went home with no trophies!

With a DE, about 1/4 of the racers go home after 2 contested heats! Another 1/4 of the racers get only 3 heats. That is too little racing, even for a slow car!

Quad-Elim guarantees 4 contested heats, minimum.

Time to run? Depends on number of heats and how much "fiddling around" you have to do for each heat.

DE: about 1 heat per racer entered

4E: about 4 1/2 heats per racer entered, see http://members.aol.com/standcmr/nelim.html

5E: about 6 heats per racer entered.

PPN: about 4 1/2 heats per racer entered, see http://members.aol.com/standcmr/ppngen.html
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kbimler
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Re: Thinking of Next Year...

Post by kbimler »

Thanks Stan. I have some reading up (and simulating) to do before we start planning next years event in a few months.

The problem that I see with out current DE is actually a preliminary round that happens before the DE begins. For some reason (nobody can really explain why), the entire field is randomly assigned into a Head to Head race in order to split the field in half. The winner of the head to head race goes into one bracket, and the looser goes into another bracket. Dividing the field.

Again, nobody can really explain why. One explanation that was told to me: "It divides the "fast" cars from the "slow" cars. (too which I answered, what if 2 fast cars race each other in the preliminary round?); the other answer is a variation on "We have always done it that way."

The problem with even being able to award 2nd place correctly, is after the 2 DE brackets are run out, they race the 2 bracket winners head to head to determine 1st and 2nd place, not taking into account the potential 3rd or 4th place cars that may be faster than one of the bracket winners.

Now you can see why I want to change things. I may look into a Quad Elim. The slowest cars will actually get 1 more race then they get now, and the winning car will probably race about the same number of times. It will also eliminate the 3rd place confusion. Selling it to the rest of the committee may be difficult, but if I simulate it a couple of times, I should be able to easily explain it to them so they will see the benefits (over the current system).
SuperDave

Re: Thinking of Next Year...

Post by SuperDave »

Too much to say. Try reading this: [moderator cut - no advertsing]
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gpraceman
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Re: Thinking of Next Year...

Post by gpraceman »

Personally, I don't like elimination methods (single, double, triple, quad, etc). I think it is better to ensure that each racer will run in every lane of the track and will race an equal number of times. That way there is no "bad lane" disadvantage.

If you must do some elimination, then do a multiple round format. For each round everyone is still racing on each lane and racing an equal number of times, then you advance the top racers to the next round.

Here's our suggested race format http://grandprix-software-central.com/g ... ormat.html. This can be run with any of the available free or commercial software for generating Perfect-N, Partial Perfect-N, and Complimentary Perfect-N charts.
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Re: Thinking of Next Year...

Post by Cory »

kbimler wrote:- Two lane track.
- No timing system.
Herein lies your problem.

While going to a three-lane track only increases the number of lanes by 50%, it doubles the number of opponents per heat and thereby unleashes the power of point-scored, schedule-based racing schemes like Stearns and PPN.

Likewise, adding a timer unleashes the power of time-based scoring.

For your setup, I prefer Stan's quad and quin elim schemes. You just can't get enough diversity of opposition to make PPN viable, IMO.

But I think you're fighting an uphill battle with your current setup. No matter what solution you select, it will lead to some dissatisfaction. If your group grows in size, then so does your problem.

It's time to go sell some popcorn, I think.
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Re: Thinking of Next Year...

Post by kbimler »

If I could get the pack to sell enough popcorn to fully fund the other activities that we do, maybe then I could start to convince them to sell the additional $4500 that is needed to purchase a new 3 lane track and timing system (about $1000 just for the track the last time I checked). Unless I build the track myself, or find a donor to foot the bill of a new one, I don't see the number of lanes changing any time soon. A home built timing system may be a possibility. I need to take a better look at the electronic finish line that is already in use to see if some sort of timing can be integrated. But on a 2 lane track, will it really make that much of a difference on the scheduling method?

I think some dissatisfaction can be tolerated, as long as places 1-3 are accurate. I think a Quad or Quint elim will produce that result.
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Re: Thinking of Next Year...

Post by gpraceman »

$4500? It's been awhile, but I think our pack's 48' 4 lane aluminum track plus timer was around $1600. Of course, doing one of the timer kits will save on cost. You could also try going around to local business and try to elicit donations.
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Re: Thinking of Next Year...

Post by Cory »

kbimler wrote:But on a 2 lane track, will it really make that much of a difference on the scheduling method?

I think some dissatisfaction can be tolerated, as long as places 1-3 are accurate. I think a Quad or Quint elim will produce that result.
The timer will give you complete diversity of opposition and complete equality of participation, unless you decide to run a finals round. They don't actually race head-to-head, but the results (i.e. the times) are comparable to the extent that you can keep the track fairly consistent.

The scheduling method becomes less significant, although most would use PPN so that no two cars race each other twice and everyone's races are spread evenly. A two or three round chart (4 or 6 races for each car) will give everyone plenty of fun with 40 to 90 heats (given your 20 or 30 cars, 2 or 3 rounds.)

Reports from Stan's elim schemes are also favorable. It does require more heats (roughly 120 to quad-elim 30 cars, or 150 to quin-elim 30 cars). In quad-elim with 30 cars, I think that some cars will get as many as 12 races, while others will only get 4, so equal and continuous participation will suffer somewhat.

Btw, I'm guessing you meant you had to sell $4500 of popcorn to net $1000 for the pack. That's a fair amount of selling for 30 Scouts, I have to admit.
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Re: Thinking of Next Year...

Post by kbimler »

gpraceman wrote:$4500? It's been awhile, but I think our pack's 48' 4 lane aluminum track plus timer was around $1600. Of course, doing one of the timer kits will save on cost. You could also try going around to local business and try to elicit donations.
Pack only gets about a 30% cut of popcorn sold. So the $4500 additional in popcorn would give us roughly $1300. Currently, our pack only sells about $4500 in popcorn to fund all of the rest of the pack activities. To sell enough popcorn to purchase a track would involve doubling our sales. Don't see that happening anytime soon.
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Re: Thinking of Next Year...

Post by gpraceman »

kbimler wrote:To sell enough popcorn to purchase a track would involve doubling our sales. Don't see that happening anytime soon.
This year our pack sold over $12,000 in popcorn, most of that coming from selling in front of grocery stores and Sams Club. Do you do that type of selling or just door to door?

As I indicated earlier, you could always go around to local businesses and ask for donations for a new track and timer. It does require some leg work, but you may be surprised at how willing businesses are in supporting scouts. They also get a tax deduction for the donation.
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Re: Thinking of Next Year...

Post by DerbyAddict »

kbimler wrote:Pack only gets about a 30% cut of popcorn sold. So the $4500 additional in popcorn would give us roughly $1300. Currently, our pack only sells about $4500 in popcorn to fund all of the rest of the pack activities. To sell enough popcorn to purchase a track would involve doubling our sales. Don't see that happening anytime soon.
What about a Spring fundraiser? We do "Family Fest", others call it something else. We raised the money during that. We spent under $1000 for a 3 lane with timer and Randy's software (Besttrack and Newbold Daytona timer). I think it was around $850 but that was two years ago. Give the boys the goal and let them try it. You'll be suprised. Get 'em excited about what a new track would mean (more racing+faster racing+fairer racing=MORE FUN!)


Or you could submit a Unit Money Earning application with the desired goal of purchasing a PWD track. There are lots of options out there. But you have participate in the other fundraisers.
gpraceman wrote:As I indicated earlier, you could always go around to local businesses and ask for donations for a new track and timer. It does require some leg work, but you may be surprised at how willing businesses are in supporting scouts. They also get a tax deduction for the donation.
BSA frowns heavily on this. The DE and Council reps use these resources. If a local business donates $100 for this then two weeks later the DE pops in to ask for a contribution to FOS the business is likely to be put out. Be very careful.
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