5E with Finals and my "new ideas"?

[brownboy]

Here's what I'm thinking please weigh in if it's fair and practical

the basics 3 lane track 40 ish boys racing in each group.

I was concerned having to put a sticker on two cars after every heat would be a nightmare.
here's my idea.

Wanted to get "tokens", could be poker chips or something close, specific color for each group, On said Token would be a car number that would correspond to a specific racer assigned the same number. Have Eleven boxes 0(loss) pre, 0(loss)post, 1 pre, 1 post, ... etc to 5 and finally "out".
To start the competition the starter would draw 3 tokens out of the 0 pre(race) box and announce them as lane 1,2,3 in the order that they were pulled. The winners of that heat would be placed in the 0 post(race) box and the 2nd and 3rd place cars would be put in the 1 pre(race) box. after all racers in the prerace box had raced, the token would reset from the post box to the pre, and the format would follow the bottom to top format that Stan outlined.

Once the groups were reduced to one car each the finals would ensue, have the lower ranked boy given lane choice for the first challenge then if necessary, the higher ranked boy given lane choice for the next heat, again following the format Stan outlined up until a champion is determined.

Anyone see any problems with this "random" method to determine lane choice?
Anyone see any problems with the tokens being used to select racers in a given heat?, or the practicality of tokens at all?

I appreciate you helping me think thru this process in advance to see if there are inherent flaws that my inexperience won't allow me to predict.

[Stan Pope]

Here's what I'm thinking please weigh in if it's fair and practical

the basics 3 lane track 40 ish boys racing in each group.

I was concerned having to put a sticker on two cars after every heat would be a nightmare.

Actually, we just "stamp" or write the new group number on the racer's record card, worn by the boy-owner. Stickers aren't necessary or recommended, though the first year I did used color coded stickers for the boys. Also, the stickers are quite expensive by comparison!

here's my idea.

Wanted to get "tokens", could be poker chips or something close, specific color for each group, On said Token would be a car number that would correspond to a specific racer assigned the same number. Have Eleven boxes 0(loss) pre, 0(loss)post, 1 pre, 1 post, ... etc to 5 and finally "out".
To start the competition the starter would draw 3 tokens out of the 0 pre(race) box and announce them as lane 1,2,3 in the order that they were pulled. The winners of that heat would be placed in the 0 post(race) box and the 2nd and 3rd place cars would be put in the 1 pre(race) box. after all racers in the prerace box had raced, the token would reset from the post box to the pre, and the format would follow the bottom to top format that Stan outlined.

This works, but will run much slower than the procedure that I sent. The reason is that you need to call up each scout by number. In the suggested procedure, you get the boys together and mix them. ask them to move away from anyone they have raced before, and lead 'em up to the starting line. With calling up by number, you have all the same delays as running by a chart! Boys not paying attention, boys in the washroom, ...

If you are to accept late entries, you must track how many rounds they have missed so as to enter them into the competition in the correct group.

There is a risk in that you don't have any kind of "trail" in case something goes wrong ... dropped boxes, confused score keeper, for instance. I think that if you do this, you must add a written record of the draw and results so that you can "put it back together".

With the individual record cards on which their new group is written or stamped, you can tell at any time where the boy is in the competition and what should be done if he made "an extended pit stop." Each racer also has his own record of results to take home with him.

End-of-group draw, i.e. when there are 4 or 5 scouts left from the line to race, the procedure that I supplied includes all lanes but randomizes the grouping. If you have 4 tokens left in the box, would you always have the next two race in lanes 1 and 2? If you have 5 tokens left in the box, throw in an "X" token, and draw 3 tokens for lanes 1, 2, and 3. The X will turn up in one of the two groups, signifying the lane to be unoccupied.

Once the groups were reduced to one car each the finals would ensue, have the lower ranked boy given lane choice for the first challenge then if necessary, the higher ranked boy given lane choice for the next heat, again following the format Stan outlined up until a champion is determined.

Interesting variation. Not sure of the effect.

My preference is still to let chance control lane assignments, just as has been done from the start of racing.

BTW, I sent you my chairman's package. No one else has all that detail ... they just have what is on my website at nelim.htm.

[brownboy]

End-of-group draw, i.e. when there are 4 or 5 scouts left from the line to race, the procedure that I supplied includes all lanes but randomizes the grouping. If you have 4 tokens left in the box, would you always have the next two race in lanes 1 and 2? If you have 5 tokens left in the box, throw in an "X" token, and draw 3 tokens for lanes 1, 2, and 3. The X will turn up in one of the two groups, signifying the lane to be unoccupied

OK Now I get the x token concept... works for me

As far as the drawing of tokens slowing down the race, I was thinking of a way to predraw and have at least one heat always on deck. our space is limited so I'm not sure if having 40 boys on their feet in a small area with cars and tracks and electronic finishes is something we can try.

Never thought about late entries, I guess we could put him in the lowest alive group.
extended "pit stops" would be a nightmare in any system, don't know how I handle that short of droping them a group.

There is a risk in that you don't have any kind of "trail" in case something goes wrong ... dropped boxes, confused score keeper, for instance. I think that if you do this, you must add a written record of the draw and results so that you can "put it back together".

does video count? I can't see how I could make a paper trail of this undertaking, I'm not sure if I see how any method could survive people making mistakes that are in charge of the event. The guy that is going to be running most of our event is an idiot too, no wait, that's me.

[Stan Pope]

End-of-group draw, i.e. when there are 4 or 5 scouts left from the line to race, the procedure that I supplied includes all lanes but randomizes the grouping. If you have 4 tokens left in the box, would you always have the next two race in lanes 1 and 2? If you have 5 tokens left in the box, throw in an "X" token, and draw 3 tokens for lanes 1, 2, and 3. The X will turn up in one of the two groups, signifying the lane to be unoccupied

OK Now I get the x token concept... works for me

As far as the drawing of tokens slowing down the race, I was thinking of a way to predraw and have at least one heat always on deck. our space is limited so I'm not sure if having 40 boys on their feet in a small area with cars and tracks and electronic finishes is something we can try.

They gotta be somewhere! Actually only the bunch awaiting run in the current round group need be standing ... the others may be seated around their group leader.

Never thought about late entries, I guess we could put him in the lowest alive group.
extended "pit stops" would be a nightmare in any system, don't know how I handle that short of droping them a group.

Exactly! Tardiness and AWOL requires some penalty, but not a "death penalty." Dropping down a group for each round missed, "excused" or not, is proportional!

There is a risk in that you don't have any kind of "trail" in case something goes wrong ... dropped boxes, confused score keeper, for instance. I think that if you do this, you must add a written record of the draw and results so that you can "put it back together".

does video count? I can't see how I could make a paper trail of this undertaking, I'm not sure if I see how any method could survive people making mistakes that are in charge of the event. The guy that is going to be running most of our event is an idiot too, no wait, that's me.

A simple list, one heat per line of the car numbers drawn, in the order drawn, with the winners circled; Separate groups of lines with the Round# Group # for the following lines. Very simple. At any point, you can reconstruct the needed contents of any box by reading the numbers from the bottom line up.

You can also check what you did the next day. Did it run as planned? Were any mistakes made? Why? How to fix next year?

[brownboy]

A simple list, one heat per line of the car numbers drawn, in the order drawn, with the winners circled; Separate groups of lines with the Round# Group # for the following lines. Very simple. At any point, you can reconstruct the needed contents of any box by reading the numbers from the bottom line up.

You can also check what you did the next day. Did it run as planned? Were any mistakes made? Why? How to fix next year?

Man why is it the simple answers are usually the best?! It's so simple it's brilliant, when I draw I'll write down the heats as I go, it'll help me remember who's racing when no one car hear me over the crowd, and I'll just circle the winner when the heat is done. I think I'll make it a legal pad, gonna be a bunch of heats.

man am I amped about hosting the race.

[Stan Pope]

Staging idea ... if you have 5 or 6 medium sized dry erase boards, say 12"X18", you can record the next three racer numbers on each board and line up the board holders leading toward the starting line. Boys go to the board that their number is on. As a heat is staged at the starting line, the starter or his assistant can hold up the board so folks can see who is racing. One of the racers takes the board to the finish line judge, who marks the winner, holds it up for all to see, then passes it to the draw to be recorded, erased and new numbers added, so that it can be given to the first empty-handed board holder.

I think that I saw some usable sized white board kits at the K-Mart in town.

Cheaper than buying a PA, but you probably want a PA available anyway.

Summary reaction re fairness, etc. Everything that you described seems very fair. Vary few arbitrary choices to be made during the racing! Accuracy should follow the simulations very nicely.

Important note: Very likely you will be the most knowledgable person on this method on the premises. You need to be able to wander around and make sure that each person is doing their job correctly. Therefore, you probably shouldn't be doing any one of the jobs!

[brownboy]

Important note: Very likely you will be the most knowledgable person on this method on the premises. You need to be able to wander around and make sure that each person is doing their job correctly. Therefore, you probably shouldn't be doing any one of the jobs!

I hate it sometimes when you're right. The plan is to run two groups at the same time (two tracks), I was going to do my best to run our half myself the 5E way, and let the other group run DE. My thinking was, if it's only one group I can handle it myself, but I realize that I'd be better off delagating the many jobs and overseeing the operation than trying to be a one man show.

[Stan Pope]

I'd be better off delagating the many jobs and overseeing the operation than trying to be a one man show.

You've got it!

One of the not-so-obvious benefits is that you are growing a group of people who know the method. Next year is easier. A year or so after that, maybe, you can sit back and watch 'em do the job without help! You'll be "guru emeritus".

If you need some wooden beads for tokens, give me a shout... I have a few hundred of them that I "rescued" ... used to be a car seat cushion!

[Stan Pope]

Staging idea ... if you have 5 or 6 medium sized dry erase boards, say 12"X18", you can record the next three racer numbers on each board and line up the board holders leading toward the starting line. Boys go to the board that their number is on. As a heat is staged at the starting line, the starter or his assistant can hold up the board so folks can see who is racing. One of the racers takes the board to the finish line judge, who marks the winner, holds it up for all to see, then passes it to the draw to be recorded, erased and new numbers added, so that it can be given to the first empty-handed board holder.

Here is an alternative using 5 or 6 legal pads (enough so that you have 1 sheet per heat)... Use legal pads and fat black felt tip marker. Slip backing behind front page and mark racers for heat (in small print, indicate the Round# and Group#. Use the full page ... big numbers! Leave the backing in so that it is there for the finish line judges to mark. When it comes back, record the result, toss the tokens in the proper tubs, tear off and stack the used sheet (face down in a pile), and repeat, using the next sheet. This will allow you to run heats out of order if someone is late answering the bell.

Tokens, in the meantime, can be drawn, laid out in two groups of rows of 3 on a towel (or something to keep them from sliding/rolling around) to await heat results. The first group is ready to be written on the pads and passed around; the second group is awaiting results.

[brownboy]

Yes, I like that idea
I also realized that I only need 9 bins not 11 i.e. 0 loss group is the same as group 1 in your literature, therefore I don't need 5 loss group, it would be the "out" group.

Thanks for helping me brainstorm Stan, we're having a dry run practice at our test n tune weekend after next, and I need this to go off without a hitch so I can convince the pack leadership to try something new.

[Stan Pope]

Yes, I like that idea
I also realized that I only need 9 bins not 11 i.e. 0 loss group is the same as group 1 in your literature, therefore I don't need 5 loss group, it would be the "out" group.

Actually, you need 7 bins; labeled 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, OUT, CurrentDraw.
Start each group by dumping the affected group into "Current Draw."

You could add "Current Win" and "Current Lose", so that you have one "be extra careful point" for each group for putting results back into the group bins. Or, you pull the two "results bins" forward (e.g. if you are running group 3, then results bins are bin 3 (for wins) and bin 4 for others.

However, if it is easier for you to keep track of what you are doing, use more.

Now, if you were trying to run one group using two or more tracks, the additional bins would be helpful! Confusing, but helpful!

The dry run / training session will be very helpful!

[brownboy]

Yes I could make 7 boxes work, the less moving parts the better.
Would I be crazy to use playing cards instead of tokens? I could see some advantages, but also more chance for confusion. Wait I think I answered my own question kids and card suits don't mix.

[Darin McGrew]

Would I be crazy to use playing cards instead of tokens? I could see some advantages, but also more chance for confusion. Wait I think I answered my own question kids and card suits don't mix.

A deck of Uno cards might work (number and color). And you'd have two of each number 1-9 in each color: one for the draw bin and one for the kid to hang on a string around his neck. That works for groups of up to 36 kids with the numbers 1-9, or with groups of up to 48 kids if you throw in the Draw Two, Reverse, and Skip cards.

But a single number is easiest for everyone to get right.

[Stan Pope]

kids and card suits don't mix.

Keeping a written record and displaying heats on legal pad or small white board don't mix well with either card type.

[brownboy]

Hey Stan (and others)

Just thought I'd check in, been running the method you helped me develop in this thread 3 years now, with great success. My only scout aged son just crossed over, I've been asked to come to Pow wow next fall and teach the method to other pack leaders and maybe to my eventual succesor, allthough I enjoy the races to much, I'm trying to convince my troop to run derbys for local packs as a recruitment tool..

anyway the reason for my post is to ask if anyone has developed software to run a 4E or 5E race with an electronic timer?

seems like it would be easy for a programer to do, some random number generation with some simple checking to avoid lane bias/multiple bye advantage/ redundant matchup issues...

right now we use the poker chip tokens, and that works great... but it would be nice if we just input the number of cars, and software took over running the race.

FYI I use a home built parallel port timer system.

thanks again for your past help. If I ever get motivated, I'll come up with a presentation that outlines the method we use, It's gotten very popular in our area.