Best Race Method for 40 kids and 2 hrs. to Run Race

[RMoose]

Here are the details as I know them right now:

It looks like I will have apx. 40 kids racing, possibly 50 if everyone in our missions programs builds a car, although that is unlikely.
Due to scheduling for other events at church, we have to finish racing within 2 hours, an hour and a half would be better!
We will have four categories racing: Boys grades 1-3 (13-18 racers), Boys 4-6 (6-8 racers), Girls 1-3 (8-10 racers), and Girls 4-6 (10-12 racers).
We will probably do a race between the winners of each group to determine "fastest overall".
We will be using a 2-lane wooden track.

Last year we ran a 4X Elimination which worked well, but before I commit to a method I would like to get some expert opinions on the best method to use with this number of kids and a time limit on the event!

[Stan Pope]

With 2 lanes, your choices are somewhat limited.

You don't say how many places you need to identify in each group, but since you ran a Quad-elim last year, I'll assume you need to find the 4 fastest in each group.

You don't say how equal the track lanes are or if you have electronics (or what the capabilities of the electronics are.) Heat timers open some additional possibilities.

In my experience, charted methods run more slowly than non-charted methods (by, maybe, 50%) due to the racer staging (and scorekeeping if it isn't automated).

The following methods operate without automation:

Full Round Robin or Double Round Robin (both charted) take way too long with that many racers in each group.

PPN charts work okay, but you may have "iffy" results, since getting to PN or CPN is equivalent to Full Round Robin / Double Round Robin.

No-chart quad-elim or quint-elim give decent results and pretty definitive results, with good number of heats per racer. The problem is that with few racers per group, the top-seed into the finals is quickly identified ... 8 racers takes 3 runs before he is alone; 9-16 racers take 4 heats. None-the-less, the method still works.

Look at MathGuy's sorting method to see how it might work with 2 lanes ... He described it here on the board. Like 4-elim and 5-elim above, it tends to match comparable cars.

Tell us more about your racing equipment and maybe other ideas will crop up.

[RMoose]

Stan,

The state rules require awards for top 3 finishers and 1 award for most unusual design in each category. That is the minimum number of awards but individual church directors have the option of doing more if they want.

Our old track was not very good, we are replacing it with a new one this year, built by one of our boy's fathers who is good at woodworking. He is basing it on the official state track plans so it can be used at association and state-level events. I think it will definitely be more even than last year's track, but I don't know how good it will be until he builds it!

We have a line judge which we used last year to help determine 1st place finishes in close races. It is not hooked up to a timer, we just get finish order. I am thinking about getting it upgraded for this year's race, but was not sure if that would be helpful or not in finishing the racing on time. I was also not sure if race software would speed things up or not, even if we got a timer upgrade.

Thanks for your suggestions, I hope the above information helps clarify our situation somewhat.

[Stan Pope]

That info does not suggest adding any alternatives.

[RMoose]

Stan,

Thanks for your insights into scheduling methods!

One thing I did not like with multiple elimination was the top-seeded car being decided so soon, but I was also concerned that round robin or PPN would just take too long. I like the idea of more races for all the kids, but I definitely need a method I can complete in 2 hours!

Before I make a final decision, here are a few additional questions I have been thinking about that I would appreciate comments on:

Do you think scheduling software would be helpful in this case? Would it speed the race up or make any difference?
Would upgrading our line judge to a timer make the race go faster?
Realistically, how many races could we work into a 2 hour time period?

Thanks again for the help. I wish I had found Derby Talk prior to last year's race! No doubt this year will be a much better event thanks to all the good advice available here!!

[Stan Pope]

Do you think scheduling software would be helpful in this case?

For software, you have two separate issues:
1. staging the racers according to the software's dictates.
2. recording heat results into the software.
Only the second is helped with finish line to computer integration.

Would it speed the race up or make any difference?

The "top performer" for heats/hour is no-chart multiple elimination. It works best with no software.

Would upgrading our line judge to a timer make the race go faster?

No, but it opens some alternatives. IMO, timer must be integrated to be useful if you are short of time.

Realistically, how many races could we work into a 2 hour time period?

For our district races with 3 racers per heat staged by the boys themselves, I aim for heat cycle times of about 34 seconds. i.e. timed from starter release to starter release. Finals take a bit longer per heat because the participants in each heat are determined by the results of the prior heat and the announcer needs to tell folks in more detail what is going on and what the result signifies. Sometimes I approach that ... sometimes not. Charted methods seem to have cycle times of two to three times that value, i.e. much slower. Major reason is organizing the boys to retrieve their cars from the pit and get them staged in the right lanes.

[Stan Pope]

1. staging the racers according to the software's dictates.

Randy tell me that the scheduling software with which he is most familiar allows the user to tell the software what schedule to dictate. In fact the user can specify that schedule right down to the heat and lane assignments for individual racers. Even after the user has told the software what schedule to dictate and the software has run part of the schedule, the user can change or add heats that are yet to be run.

Maybe "dictate" was a poor word to use. I used it to emphasize the need for the user to run the cars that the software expects in the lanes that it expect them to run in.

I don't think that the ability to specify or change the schedule changes the dynamic relative to getting the racers and their cars called up and ready to run, and, therefore, does not change the cycle time.

I think that trying to use the feature of dynamically changing the schedule hurts "no-chart N-Elim racing" heat cycle times.

[RMoose]

Thanks again Stan for your analysis of our options!

We had good results with no-chart multiple elimination last year and I am definitely leaning toward using it again this year.

Do you have any thoughts on deviating from a 4E format? Would 4E work ok with our 2 hr. time limit, or would a 3E race be a better fit?

Since I only need to award the top 3 places in the speed competition, I think 3E might work, but it would mean fewer races for the kids, which is a negative. On the other hand, it should finish faster than 4E. Any thoughts

[MathGuy]

50 racers?
Two Lanes?
Two Hours?
Figure Conservatively 1 minute per race. Stan says he and there crew can run 40 seconds? but I wouldn't plan on that.
So maybe 100 races? 100 minutes.

For any elimination method, you have to figure each race will have a loser, thus the number of races would be equal to # Eliminations X # Racers - 1. Thus for 50 racers, 2E, you would have 99 races(or 98 if the winner didn't loss ) Thus you might only get in a double elimination.

IF YOU HAVE A RELIABLE Track/TIMER: Another way to fit it in your time frame is to race all groups together and take total time. The scheduling then can be completely flexible, you just need each person to race in each lane twice. Then each and every person get's to run 4 times (4x50/2 per race = 100 races), then sort out the times by group. If you can efficiently schedule and record times, you might be able to get in some head to head of the top 4 finishers for each group.

Now Personally, I would look to change the 2 hour problem to see if you can expand the time to fit a more comfortble race format. But sometimes that is not possible.

[Stan Pope]

Well, you know how fast you were able to go per heat... take the numbers into the javascript on my nelim page and see how they shake out.

If I could fit it in, I'd run 6- or 7-elim at district races. Most of the boys want to race as much as they can. After the first round or two, the competition gets pretty keen because cars of similar ability get grouped together.

I have no way, nor any inclination, to seed cars so that the fastest race the fastest from round 1 ... that just pushes mismatches off to later rounds.

[RMoose]

Stan,

Took your advice and plugged the numbers into your javascript calculator on your site and got the following results:

Total # heats for 3E:
Boys 1-3 (13-18 racers): 46 - 63
Boys 4-6 (6-8 racers): 21 - 28
Girls 1-3 (8-10 racers): 28 - 38
Girls 4-6 (10-12 racers): 38 - 42

Overall Total heats for 3E: 133 - 171

If avg. time per heat is 45 secs. to 1 min., I get a minimum time with 3E of 1 hr. 40 mins. and a max. time of 2 hrs. 51 mins. - so looks like 3E might work within my time constrants, but just barely and only if everything goes right!

I might run the numbers through the GP Race Manager Demo I downloaded when I get a chance to see if MathGuy's idea would work any better. I kind of like the idea of mixed racing, boys vs. girls would no doubt get both groups very excited.

[Stan Pope]

One of the beauties of "no chart" as described on my website is that the various track stations need very little coordination and almost no "top level control". Once trained, the crew can make it run with the appearance of good coordination. In fact, the pieces just "fit together" easily. This is why You can get the high heate per hour.

The main job of the track chairman is to train the crew and watch the operation for "time loosers" such as "the starter is watching to see how the judges called the heat." In practice, the starter should be calling up the next racers as soon as he releases the last heat in a "fair start". Once the next heat cars are staged he looks to see if the boys have reached the finish line and to get the "go ahead" from the judges.

[RMoose]

Stan,

How many crew members do you recommend for a one track setup? I felt last year we were perhaps 1 or 2 short. Still it seems an easy way to run a race, certainly better than last years association race which relied on charts to keep track of things.

Do you try to keep track of lane assignments or do you just let that be decided by the "luck of the draw"? We alternated lanes last year with the heat winner being whoever won two races, so it became a best 2 out of 3 race. This was the same method used at the association the past two years, but I am not sure it really addresses lane inequality and it does slow the race down.

By the way, at the end of last week's meeting I had a total of 43 kids signed up to get car kits, 25 boys and 18 girls!

Many thanks for your help and patience with all these questions, but I do want to get things right for the kids!

[Stan Pope]

Staff ... lessee ... Working backward ...

Scorekeeper to mark the record cards of heat participants to show new group

Three finish line judges majority rule or (until group is small) respect each judge's call. Electronics can be one of these judges. Identify heat winner(s)

Starter assures cars safely staged, waits for racers to go to finish line and judge to say ok, releases cars, repeats

Draw to handle lane assignment draw ... run multiple token bins to keep ahead of starter ... racers carry tokens to starting line and surrender them to starter.

Pit supervisor to assure order in the pit

Mixer to grab a group, stir 'em up and lead 'em toward the starting line.

Group leaders - one for each uneliminated group. Gathering point for racers as they finish a heat. Lead line of mixed racers up to starting line to show Draw that groups are changing. As soon as Draw starts on the group, group leader returns to await members for his/her new group.

Announcer to tell audience what is going on. Which groups racing, who won heat, etc.

Ombudsman to assist with racer's questions

Chief Steward/Track Chairman to keep staff "on task" and correct their performance as needed. The staff can be doing a lot of steps in parallel. Sometimes they need to be reminded. Otherwise he/she just stands there and looks important.

I think that's all.

[ExtremePWD]

The method and staffing recommendations that Stan offers works well. He recruited me last year to be a Chief Steward/Track Chairman. 75% of my track team were plucked from the audience and trained in minutes. None of us had helped in previous years. Overall, it went pretty smoothly.