Speed impact of various types of lubrication
Speed impact of various types of lubrication
We run an annual PC Derby. Two years ago, a new group joined our organization. With no purported prior experience building PCs, this group took the three first spots out of a total 60 cars racing. This year, they also took the three first spots, this time out of 115 cars. Their group only had some 6 entries in total, so the statistical probability that this would happen randomly is just about nil. My graphite-lubricated car ended up #4 this year, one good car-length's distance from the three winners. I have five years experience building multiple cars with my sons.
Talking to one dad in the group, he revealed that all their winning cars had utilized specialized lubrication, a silicone-based products used by surgeons to lubricate the inside of medical plastic tubes to ensure trouble-free insertion and operation of micro-cameras inside patients' bodies.
My question is:
1) Is it possible that any single lube such as this one can be this superior to everything else?
2) Does anybody know what this surgeon's lube may be called and if it is commercially available?
Thanks,
Sigurd
San Diego, CA
Talking to one dad in the group, he revealed that all their winning cars had utilized specialized lubrication, a silicone-based products used by surgeons to lubricate the inside of medical plastic tubes to ensure trouble-free insertion and operation of micro-cameras inside patients' bodies.
My question is:
1) Is it possible that any single lube such as this one can be this superior to everything else?
2) Does anybody know what this surgeon's lube may be called and if it is commercially available?
Thanks,
Sigurd
San Diego, CA
- Mike Parrish
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Re: Speed impact of various types of lubrication
I work in the medical device industry, and the majority of instrument lubricants are non-silicone based (Surgi-lube, and Blitz 2). Most are paraffin based.sigurd wrote: 2) Does anybody know what this surgeon's lube may be called and if it is commercially available?
I did find a product called "Lubricone" that you might want to check out.
You might also want to check out MaxV's post under car construction\emergency lubrication. He talks about "Gunk" brand silicone lube.
Good luck.
Mike
Re: Speed impact of various types of lubrication
My tests indicate that - all other things being equal - a good thin film lube can outperform graphite by over a car length. As indicated, Gunk-brand silicon spray works well. I imagine the only real difference between this commercial brand and a medical brand is that the medical brand is sterile and has no potentially posionous compounds. The effectiveness of the lube is probably the same.
I plan to publish the results of liquid lube experiments in the October 1st edition of our newsletter.
I plan to publish the results of liquid lube experiments in the October 1st edition of our newsletter.
- Mike Parrish
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Re: Speed impact of various types of lubrication
Randy,
How far in advance do you lubricate the wheels/axles before the race? Do you have to 'warm up' the silicone before the race by spinning the wheels?
Mike
How far in advance do you lubricate the wheels/axles before the race? Do you have to 'warm up' the silicone before the race by spinning the wheels?
Mike
Re: Speed impact of various types of lubrication
Mike and all,
Upon further thought, I have realized that the surgeon lube I referred to at the start of this thread may not be silicone-based - I am simply not certain what type of product it is based on, because my source did not tell me - just that it is used by surgeons for said application.
Regards,
Sigurd
Upon further thought, I have realized that the surgeon lube I referred to at the start of this thread may not be silicone-based - I am simply not certain what type of product it is based on, because my source did not tell me - just that it is used by surgeons for said application.
Regards,
Sigurd
Re: Speed impact of various types of lubrication
Are you guys putting this spray on thin film lubricant on the axle, the ID of the wheel, or on both?
It's great when it goes straight.
Re: Speed impact of various types of lubrication
With silicon oil, there does not appear to be a break-in period, but it seems to wear off in an almost linear way. So, the best times occur right away, with a slower time at each subsequent run. For a race with few heats (less than 10), this would be okay.
Another liquid lube I tested was just the opposite. The slowest times were at the beginning, and times continued to improve through 20 heats. So similar to graphite, this lube needs a break-in period.
I recommend the procedure shown below for liquid lubes. The key is that 'less is best'. Too much lube results in slow-down due to viscosity. Of course too much lube could foul the wheels and track.
1. Put two drops of lube (or a short spray) on each axle on the area
where the wheel will spin
2. Wipe off the lube with a clean, soft rag
3. Apply two or three drops of lube (or a short spray) to a soft pipe
cleaner
4. Slide each wheel in turn onto the pipe cleaner, rotate the wheel one
time, then remove the wheel
5. Wipe off any excess lube on the outside wheel hubs
Another liquid lube I tested was just the opposite. The slowest times were at the beginning, and times continued to improve through 20 heats. So similar to graphite, this lube needs a break-in period.
I recommend the procedure shown below for liquid lubes. The key is that 'less is best'. Too much lube results in slow-down due to viscosity. Of course too much lube could foul the wheels and track.
1. Put two drops of lube (or a short spray) on each axle on the area
where the wheel will spin
2. Wipe off the lube with a clean, soft rag
3. Apply two or three drops of lube (or a short spray) to a soft pipe
cleaner
4. Slide each wheel in turn onto the pipe cleaner, rotate the wheel one
time, then remove the wheel
5. Wipe off any excess lube on the outside wheel hubs
Re: Speed impact of various types of lubrication
Do you use this silicon lube in combination with Graphite? Does it violate the rule relating to dry lubricants are only allowed? The rule for dry lube only was made to avoid fowling the track at my race.
It's great when it goes straight.
Re: Speed impact of various types of lubrication
Silicon would be used instead of graphite.
Technically it is not a dry lube, as it goes on wet. However, it you apply it per my earlier post, it will certainly not foul the track, and in fact will be much less messy than graphite.
Technically it is not a dry lube, as it goes on wet. However, it you apply it per my earlier post, it will certainly not foul the track, and in fact will be much less messy than graphite.
- Darin McGrew
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Re: Speed impact of various types of lubrication
No. Don't mix dry lubricants with wet lubricants. You usually end up with a sticky sludge that is worse than nothing. If you're lucky, then it's better than nothing, but worse than either lubricant used separately.Jewel wrote:Do you use this silicon lube in combination with Graphite?
We have no such rule.Jewel wrote:Does it violate the rule relating to dry lubricants are only allowed? The rule for dry lube only was made to avoid fowling the track at my race.
While I see a reason for a "don't make a mess" rule, I see no reason for a "dry lubricants only" rule. Besides, if it doesn't make a mess, how can the inspectors know what kind of lubricant you've used?
But this is wandering off-topic for the "Car Construction" forum...
Re: Speed impact of various types of lubrication
I hope these are my last questions on this alternate lubricant Randy.
It last about 10 runs, can you put it on days or even weeks ahead and it will still be effective? It simply wears off but it does not degrade. I assume. It sounds very tempting and I am looking forward to testing it.
It last about 10 runs, can you put it on days or even weeks ahead and it will still be effective? It simply wears off but it does not degrade. I assume. It sounds very tempting and I am looking forward to testing it.
It's great when it goes straight.
Re: Speed impact of various types of lubrication
Just to clarify, silicon will last much longer than 10 heats. In my tests, even after 20 heats it was still performing better than graphite. However, the effectiveness drops off a tiny bit with each run. So if you are in a race where others are using specialty lubes, I wouldn't recommend it if a winning car will be involved in more than about 10 heats.
Regarding when to apply. It doesn't evaporate, but instead it wears off from use. So you can certainly apply it days, or possibly weeks before.
I ran tests back in May. As of August 26, the wheels lubricated with thin film lubes (including silicon) still free spin at essentially the same rate as they did in May. I conclude that these lubes have a long life, and they don't deteriorate the wheels in any way.
Regarding when to apply. It doesn't evaporate, but instead it wears off from use. So you can certainly apply it days, or possibly weeks before.
I ran tests back in May. As of August 26, the wheels lubricated with thin film lubes (including silicon) still free spin at essentially the same rate as they did in May. I conclude that these lubes have a long life, and they don't deteriorate the wheels in any way.
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Re: Speed impact of various types of lubrication
This is a difficult topic as there is so much variation in how people apply lubes, the brands, the materials the wheels are made of, the response of the lube to humidity, temperature, etc..
We have also run lube trials and generally concur with Randy's conclusions up to the caveats above - although we have only used GUNK not silicon oil. GUNK does need at least half an hour to dry, but does seem affected by humidity and temperature. Randy lives in a hot, very dry climate (AZ) and I live in a hot, very humid one (TX). I have no doubt it works best in a dry climate. Try it in a cold, damp climate and there may be trouble!
Also, stay away from spray lubes that boast "highly penetrating". It does. The wheels soak it in and gum up!
When done correctly as Randy describes, silicone gets better with each race and can last for months or longer in storage. Even if were only merely as good as graphite or graphite and moly (which our tests showed worse - perhaps humidity?) we would still use silicon spray as it is so much cleaner and less finiky.
We have also run lube trials and generally concur with Randy's conclusions up to the caveats above - although we have only used GUNK not silicon oil. GUNK does need at least half an hour to dry, but does seem affected by humidity and temperature. Randy lives in a hot, very dry climate (AZ) and I live in a hot, very humid one (TX). I have no doubt it works best in a dry climate. Try it in a cold, damp climate and there may be trouble!
Also, stay away from spray lubes that boast "highly penetrating". It does. The wheels soak it in and gum up!
When done correctly as Randy describes, silicone gets better with each race and can last for months or longer in storage. Even if were only merely as good as graphite or graphite and moly (which our tests showed worse - perhaps humidity?) we would still use silicon spray as it is so much cleaner and less finiky.
Michael Lastufka
Re: Speed impact of various types of lubrication
Good info everyone!
I talked to a fellow the other day who used Pledge furniture polish MIXED with graphite. He claimed that all of his cars took first at the club level. I have used Pledge for our races at school and it performs reasonably well. What about "personal lubricants"? The expensive ones are silicone based and reduce friction substantially even when dry. We don't have rules regarding wet/dry lube in our area yet (I help make the rules so it's partially up to me )
I'm making a car for myself and experimenting with different things each year, this year is "lube test"
TIA
I talked to a fellow the other day who used Pledge furniture polish MIXED with graphite. He claimed that all of his cars took first at the club level. I have used Pledge for our races at school and it performs reasonably well. What about "personal lubricants"? The expensive ones are silicone based and reduce friction substantially even when dry. We don't have rules regarding wet/dry lube in our area yet (I help make the rules so it's partially up to me )
I'm making a car for myself and experimenting with different things each year, this year is "lube test"
TIA
Awana Commander
Jeep Fleet Maintenance Director
Dad
Bowhunter
I can't break the rules, I write them!
Jeep Fleet Maintenance Director
Dad
Bowhunter
I can't break the rules, I write them!
- Da Graphite Kid
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Re: Speed impact of various types of lubrication
Okay guys, Randy's secret lube is out! Check the Max-V web site and you will see what I mean. I got my wife order some for me today (hmmm, wonder what I'm going to have to do to repay her?). Even if we can't use it for racing, I wanted to get some to play with myself.
Da Graphite Kid
(If this stuff is as good as Randy shows on his site, I'll have to change my name to: "Da Nye Oil Kid!)
Da Graphite Kid
(If this stuff is as good as Randy shows on his site, I'll have to change my name to: "Da Nye Oil Kid!)