New Graphite Comparisons

[MaxV]

Tube-O-Lube has a smaller particle size, does not include molybdenum, and (likely) has a higher carbon content (it is 95% carbon).

I have not tried straight moly, but am not convinced that moly improves performance for pinewood derby cars. Apparently, moly lube is targetted more for high temperature lubrication applications.

[Stephen's Dad]

This is far from true science. It is simply an observation. My son was wondering all of the same things that we have been discussing about dry lubes since I got him a bottle of PE's new dry stuff in a Pinewood Christmas package.

So last weekend we took his 3 old cars out of the storage cabinet. Each one was repeatedly run down a single 8 foot track section that was elevated 10 inches. We used a Microwizard GP Fast Track timer to clock each car over several trips each.

His (red) short wheelbase Tiger year car (logically the oldest) was the slowest despite having won Council that year. Next was the (brown) Pack Champ from last year (2nd in District) & fastest was the (blue) "Daddy car" that we never raced. The blue car has been an exhibition only speed demon at build workshops & Scout signups. It has illegal machined & chromed axles & purchased CNC lathed "speed wheels".

The unlubed standings were:

1st Blue (large margin)
2nd Brown
3rd Red

I wish we had recorded the times of the "dry tests".

We then treated the Blue illegal car to Hob-E-Lube.
The Brown & Red cars both received the new PE Extreme.

Our first impression was that the PE Extreme seemed very "light" as though it would fail to really enter the bore. Then we were concerned it might not even stay in the bore.

But after another 4 trips for each car a trend was becoming evident.

1st Brown (1.478 sec)
2nd Red (1.489 sec)
3rd Blue (1.530 sec)

Taken at face value this might seem profound. But we didn't bother to clean or check the lube status of any of the cars before we started. We could just tell by the wheel noise & the diminishing times that the bores were running low.

For now I am cautiously optimistic but Stephen is convinced that he has a trophy in a bottle with the PE Extreme.

We'll see.

[joe]

Tube-O-Lube has a smaller particle size, does not include molybdenum, and (likely) has a higher carbon content (it is 95% carbon).

I have not tried straight moly, but am not convinced that moly improves performance for pinewood derby cars. Apparently, moly lube is targetted more for high temperature lubrication applications.

For what it's worth: "Dry" spray-on moly works good on my doors, but it is no good on derby cars. It has a lower Cf but has a "break away" point much greater than that of graphite. Same with teflon spray. Once we took high-graphite (very soft) pencil leads, turned them to about .098 on the dremel to slide into the bore, and polished the wheel bores. Also didn't work well - must be too much clay. Dang it, sounded good.

Stephen's dad -- very interesting!

[Pinewood Daddy]

We could just tell by the wheel noise & the diminishing times that the bores were running low.

For now I am cautiously optimistic but Stephen is convinced that he has a trophy in a bottle with the PE Extreme.

We'll see.

Are you saying the PE Extreme started running low?? How many races did it last??

I bought Tube-O-Lube for this year. Hob-E-Lube is much too gritty.

[A1nogoslo]

We also have done some testing with lubes...

We also tried the Pinewood Extreme's graphite and our cars run .02's
slower.
I think the graphite is to fine, clingy and very very messy.

We use two lubes we apply our first lube then we apply Hob-E-Lube.

With Axles that have grooves that can hold graphite our cars will run
on the average 18-22 runs consistently before the graphite runs out.
Plenty of runs for most races. No break in required...

We use a 42' Aluminum Best Track same setup as the WIRL races...

And all of the Wet lubes tested Nyoil II, Krytox, Armorall, Liquid Gold
and others seem to be much slower than any graphite, yet tested...

We still need to try Tube-O-Lube and there are many other dry lubes to test also... More testing required...

[Stephen's Dad]

Pinewood Daddy said:

Stephen's Dad wrote:
We could just tell by the wheel noise & the diminishing times that the bores were running low.

For now I am cautiously optimistic but Stephen is convinced that he has a trophy in a bottle with the PE Extreme.

We'll see.

Are you saying the PE Extreme started running low?? How many races did it last??

No. The cars were not prepped for a scientific comparisson at all prior to testing. Rather I was testing our new timer with a single car. Stephen thought that looked like fun & pulled out more cars. Soon we were tracking their times on a sheet of paper. Both of us were suprised the cars were slowing down & starting to run "loud". We surmised that all 3 were running low on graphite/moly since we hadn't lubed any of them since they went into their display case.

This is when we decided to use 2 different types of lube to observe the results.

The PE Extreme was clearly the fastest by a fairly wide margin considering the speed of the cars prior to treatment but we only compared it to Hob-E-Lube.

None of the treated cars seemd to be slowing down after their initial puffs. But they only traveled about 48 feet each & never at full track speeds.

Steve

[doct1010]

We also have done some testing with lubes...

And all of the Wet lubes tested Nyoil II, Krytox, Armorall, Liquid Gold
and others seem to be much slower than any graphite, yet tested... :wall

Hmmm interesting. "MUCH" slower? Care to share the methodology used? Special secret blend? Treating bore prior to app? Don't know about Armorall or Liquid Gold, but our experience with NyeOil and Krytox suggest otherwise.

[A1nogoslo]

Well the new tests are in and the results are the same as Extremes

graphite. Tub-O-Lube is also .02 slower.

Don't know what kinda tests all you guys perform, but When you run a fast car down a 42' Best track the Times that the cars run don't lie...

I guess if you use a slower car that wobbles all over the track you might get different results. So its hard to say what lube is better...

So my thoughts are this , Use what ever makes your own car go its fastest and not rely on other's tests because they don't even give all the imformation about the car that is tested on, wheels, axles, weight, weight placement, wheel base, wheel width, 3 wheel car , 4 wheel car, track setup, kind of track used, tempeture, humidity, time of day, season, theres alot of things that will make a differnce in determing which lube is better than others.

We have purchaced most all these lubes and found on our cars and track setup, that we have different test results. So even with our test results you may find it to be different thans yours.

[SpinDoctor]

Just trying to catch up on your results.
So are you saying PE and TOL are .02 slower than HOL, given your configuration?

[Stephen's Dad]

SpinDoctor,

We found that Pinewood Extremes Moly/Graphite Extreme was the fastest when compared to straight graphite & Hob-E-Lube.

This finding was consistent with the result that Pinewood Extreme used to have on their website. I can't find the results any more so cannot provide a link.

The link was somewhere around here:

http://www.pinewoodextreme.com/product. ... t=Graphite

I saved an image of the data so that we can conduct our own tests on a fully constructed track at some point.

[Buckeye]

I find my best success with Krytox. I have been unable to get any of the graphites to come within .03 of the Krytox. I have all the mentioned graphites and have had best results with the Hob-e-lube. This is with many runs with several of my cars. I find the graphite harder to use on the mods because of the tighter fit between the axle and the wheel.

I know some others are having success with graphite, but after extensive testing this past month, I am sticking with the oil.

I will say that application of the oil is everything. I can pickup .03 to .04 with proper application and breakin of Krytox. You can't just apply and go.

My tests are on very well aligned and tested cars on a 40' Piantedosi track.

[SpinDoctor]

I have to stick to graphite per our rules.

Side note to you WIRL guys. Do you get your car back each month and reapply or do you let it stay there and get it back every other month?

At a minimum i will send cars in Oct/Nov/Dec. They will be next scouting year cars so the will be eligible for our Pack/District as current year cars, but I will know if they are dialed in or not. The wife would kill me if I bought a track (but I may make my own 2 laner. My only concern is durabilityand storage with all the humidity we get her in MI.

[Teeeman]

I find my best success with Krytox. I have been unable to get any of the graphites to come within .03 of the Krytox. I have all the mentioned graphites and have had best results with the Hob-e-lube. This is with many runs with several of my cars. I find the graphite harder to use on the mods because of the tighter fit between the axle and the wheel.

I know some others are having success with graphite, but after extensive testing this past month, I am sticking with the oil.

I will say that application of the oil is everything. I can pickup .03 to .04 with proper application and breakin of Krytox. You can't just apply and go.

My tests are on very well aligned and tested cars on a 40' Piantedosi track.

Is the Krytox "off the shelf" or some type of specialty formula?

Do you have a link?

Would Krytox violate the no liquid lube rule?

-Terry

[bcatv]

Buckeye,

Were all of your tests on grooved axles? I know the consensus is that grooved is the way to go for Krytox/Nyeoil, but have seen some tests indicating that graphite/moly works better on an ungrooved axle.

Did you use the same breakin for all the graphites?

If you are willing to share even more trade secrets, what is your application/breakin procedure for Krytox? I have seen several comments that it was much more "forgiving" of application technique than Nyeoil, so it is very interesting to me that you, with the WIRL performance to confirm it, find such differences from application.

And if you're really feeling charitable, care to comment on rail-rider vs. straight-ahead alignment?

V

[bcatv]

A1nogoslo,

Pretty funny, my wolf scout picked Cold Fusion as the car he wanted to model his effort this year after, so if we go back to Hob-E-Lube, I can tell him he's even using the same lube.
Except of course for your secret sauce:

"We use two lubes we apply our first lube then we apply Hob-E-Lube."

Assuming you don't care to comment on what that first lube is, can you tell us what breakin you used for the various graphites? Have always heard that HobEL needed breaking in, (never understood why the plastic wheel bore was likely to breakdown the moly particles), but you say later something to indicate no breakin. So you see consistent times from the first run?

V