Wheel Base, What do you run?

[Stan Pope]

So while we still will be running the Standard Wheelsbase, it looks we will have to do some of Stan's LBW shimming this year to run straight!

You need to be "in the ballpark" (within a degree or two) for LBW Shimming to be able to bring the axles dead-on. Hand-held drills without guides will probably not be close enough!

In that case, you have go to one of the cruder methods, like (ugh!) bending the axles!

[Jungle Jim]

In our pack and district races, we are required to use the slots that are cut in the kit block, of course we straighten them, but we use them.

I noticed that Stan's example from the body thread has an extended wheel base.

Q: What are you required to run?

We run the "Standard" wheelbase.

[Jungle Jim]

In a survey of district and council rules that I did a few years ago, I found a wide variation in interpreting the Cub Scout kit "Rules in the Box" on the subject of wheel location:
(There are similar variations of interpretation for wheel treatments, too.)

This is why we have established our own Council-wide rules and inform all participants that the rules in the box are not to be used.

Besides that, I really enjoy the tedious task of amending the rules after every year .

[Stan Pope]

We run the "Standard" wheelbase.

Are you required to leave the wheelbase where it is in a "fresh out of the box" block? Or, can you move the wheelbase around, so long as it is not changed?

[Jungle Jim]

Are you required to leave the wheelbase where it is in a "fresh out of the box" block? Or, can you move the wheelbase around, so long as it is not changed?

The wheelbase must be where it is "out-of-the-box" (approx. 4.25" to 4.375"). It can be at either end, or anywhere in-between that designs may allow of the vehicle, as long as the length has not been altered.

Hope this answers your question.

[Stan Pope]

Are you required to leave the wheelbase where it is in a "fresh out of the box" block? Or, can you move the wheelbase around, so long as it is not changed?

The wheelbase must be where it is "out-of-the-box" (approx. 4.25" to 4.375"). It can be at either end, or anywhere in-between that designs may allow of the vehicle, as long as the length has not been altered.

Hope this answers your question.

That is not the answer to the question that I tried to ask. Let me ask it another way.

If I cut 1/4" off one end of the block and glue it onto the other end, is the axle location legal? (Note that the wheelbase has not changed, just been moved, as a unit, back a bit in the car!)

[Jungle Jim]

The wheelbase must be where it is "out-of-the-box" (approx. 4.25" to 4.375"). It can be at either end, or anywhere in-between that designs may allow of the vehicle, as long as the length has not been altered.

Hope this answers your question.

That is not the answer to the question that I tried to ask. Let me ask it another way.

If I cut 1/4" off one end of the block and glue it onto the other end, is the axle location legal? (Note that the wheelbase has not changed, just been moved, as a unit, back a bit in the car!)

I'll try to answer it in another way. Wheelbase is the measurement from one set of axles to another. As long as the wheelbase is "standard" it is ok. You may relocate wood to other parts of the vehicle as long as it remains within specs for the whole vehicle i.e. 7" max, wheels behind front of vehicle which must be the lowest point and at least 3/4" wide, etc.

[Stan Pope]

I'll try to answer it in another way. Wheelbase is the measurement from one set of axles to another. As long as the wheelbase is "standard" it is ok. You may relocate wood to other parts of the vehicle as long as it remains within specs for the whole vehicle i.e. 7" max, wheels behind front of vehicle which must be the lowest point and at least 3/4" wide, etc.

Thanks for clarifying, JJ! I realized after asking the original question that the phrase "leave the wheelbase where it is" might be ambiguous... reasonably interpreted to refer to either or both distance and locations.

Some groups say "use the slots" without further qualification. So I cut some off the front and cut some off the back and stick the cut-offs into the middle. The English language! Yech! )

[Da Graphite Kid]

Stan, while I want to encourage all of the Cubs Scouts to "do their best"; I'm trying to avoid controversy about this same interpretation of the rules at our District pwd race. I don't want anyone to show up with a car that does not break the "letter of the law (rules)" but does break the "spirit of the rules". There is no reason why this sort of clarification could not be put to print as others have done so - your Wotamalo District rules do a good job of this. Unfortunately, I can't get the District Pinewood Derby Coordinator/Chairman to listen...

So there is just one thing to do: volunteer to run the District Derby next year and show everyone a better way!

Personally, I would rather have a more open set of rules to allow for more innovation and experimentation but this seems to only lead to more controversy and boys getting their feelings hurt because someone else's innovation gave them an unfair advantage. I have heard that some boys decide not to race again because of some of this sort of thing (or their parents won't let them). So I plan on having a more 'open class' along with the more traditional class.

Sorry for getting on my pinebox and getting a little off topic here but I can't stand it when someone figures out a better way of doing something and then gets squashed because they did not interpretate the rules the same way.

By the way Stan: do you have a copy of your District rules in a PDF or WORD format that you could share with us?


Da Graphite Kid

[Barga Racing]

Our rules say we have to use the original slots but that is all it says. Last year we got it approved from the district rep that we could cut some off back and glue it on front as long as we used original slots. I wonder what they would say if we cut the car in half and turned one half around and glued it back together. We would still use original slots but have an extended wheel base. I bet the rules would be more clear next year, as well as probably not being allowed to run this year.

[Stan Pope]

Our rules say we have to use the original slots but that is all it says. Last year we got it approved from the district rep that we could cut some off back and glue it on front as long as we used original slots. I wonder what they would say if we cut the car in half and turned one half around and glued it back together. We would still use original slots but have an extended wheel base. I bet the rules would be more clear next year, as well as probably not being allowed to run this year.

I see two paths to solution:

First, you can build and tune two cars to perfection... one on each side of that rule. If they decline the first, push the point a bit, e.g. ask to be shown the rules which the car violates, but be prepared to submit the second car for inspection.

Second, you can ask the district/council racing chairman for a ruling in advance. You do have to be very clear in wording the question and insist on a clear answer. I would ask the question in writing, if it were me, and ask for a response in writing.

Asked of me, I would confer with the other event officials and document the decision in our PWD Q&A page online. I think that year-to-year consistency in rules interpretation is important to event growth.

Perhaps the desire for secrecy is why I get so few "original" questions from others... most of the questions answered on the Q&A page are ones that I have posed!

[Darin McGrew]

I think that year-to-year consistency in rules interpretation is important to event growth.

Even if you aren't concerned about "event growth", it's a good idea to keep things consistent. Improvements (e.g., switching from double elimination to round-robin race schedules) are less of an issue than arbitrary changes. We've had kids caught by surprise when they discovered (unfortunately, at the derby itself ) that the design category they were trying to win no longer existed.

On the other hand, a little variation can be good. I'm not sure how to incorporate it into a derby, but CSB's NorCal Camporal (a camporal is a camporee that rhymes with "NorCal" ) occasionally varies the events. That keeps things fresh for the youth that have been competing in the same events every year.

[RACER X]

Stan, while I want to encourage all of the Cubs Scouts to "do their best"; I'm trying to avoid controversy about this same interpretation of the rules at our District pwd race.

This is a great point and we try to do the same thing also, comply with the same rules for the district race. This will be our pack's 3rd. year running our race, and I agree with Stan and Darrin, we are trying to make the rules consistant each year so everyone enjoys the event. We will let some cars go that are a bit of a "Push" on the rules or go as far to help a boy modify his car to comply. I like to see some creativity and inovation, even if Dad had a hand in it, hopefuly the child learns something from it. Show them how to "think out of the box".

I have heard that some boys decide not to race again because of some of this sort of thing (or their parents won't let them).

This is what troubles me!!! I am still a young guy, [at least I think] and I see too many parents "Laying down or pulling out when it gets hot for Jr." They want to protect the self esteme or not get caught up in competition. I'm sorry, life is competitive and if we quit at some as simple as P.W.D. what happens when the heat is really on? I see it all of the time, parents who do not let the kids participate in certain sports they have tried because it is "To Competitive" they take their children out of challenge classes in school because it is "To much work". My son races 50 cc motocross, he is not the fastest around, but he loves and wants to go all of the time. When he lines up against the other 20 or so kids, he is on his own, Dad or Mom can't help anymore. His goal is to be a little better each time out and have fun. It comes from scouting I believe, " Do your Best"

Sorry, I thought this was the parenting forum for a minute.

[Stan Pope]

This is a great point and we try to do the same thing also, comply with the same rules for the district race. This will be our pack's 3rd. year running our race, and I agree with Stan and Darrin, we are trying to make the rules consistant each year so everyone enjoys the event. We will let some cars go that are a bit of a "Push" on the rules or go as far to help a boy modify his car to comply. I like to see some creativity and inovation, even if Dad had a hand in it, hopefuly the child learns something from it. Show them how to "think out of the box".

Try as we might, it is difficult toget exactly the same interpretations of identical unit and district/council rules. I hope that when the pack race inspector gives a pass on a questionable car, he also warns the owner that the district race inspector might disagree.

We don't have a "district rules hot-line" to help the inspector out when he encounters something that is new to him. Should we? We do have CS Roundtable EarlyBird to discuss district PW rules and changes each year. And, we have "excruciatingly detailed rules" and supporting material available online to the builders.

I have heard several boys/parents tell the district inspector that a particular "feature" must be okay because their cubmaster/inspector approved it at the pack races.

Fortunately, most inspection exceptions can be resolved in the pits during the inspection period. There are exceptions, though. One of the hardest for me was a car whose wheels extended about 1/8" beyond the body of the car. To me, personally, this is a non-issue, because it does not help the car (hurts it, in fact). But the overwhelming preference of the rules committee was "everything behind the starting pin," and this was established in the rules accordingly. I am looking forward to having an alternative to an onsite drill press in the pits to resolve this type of problem this year! (Thanks, "Pro-")

[Jungle Jim]

Our rules say we have to use the original slots but that is all it says. Last year we got it approved from the district rep that we could cut some off back and glue it on front as long as we used original slots. I wonder what they would say if we cut the car in half and turned one half around and glued it back together. We would still use original slots but have an extended wheel base. I bet the rules would be more clear next year, as well as probably not being allowed to run this year.

This is exactly why we added wheelbase specs to our rules.