Rail Riding - "How To Guide"

Secrets, tips, tools, design considerations, materials, the "science" behind it all, and other topics related to building the cars and semi-trucks.

Have you had success with a "rail rider"?

Yes
90
49%
No
8
4%
Somewhat
12
7%
Haven't tried yet
72
40%
 
Total votes: 182

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sporty
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Re: Rail Riding - "How To Guide"

Post by sporty » Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:08 pm

Slalom wrote:Thanks guys, think I will slot the heads with my dremel (steady hand required), probably take some beta blockers before hand:>

two more questions, one relates to this thread, hope It's not a violation to stray.

1.I already have the body built and drilled, with a mighty fine paint job, retrospectively i would have drilled holes with camber using SP's technique, I alas have to use angled axles. Why can't grooved axles be angled? Is the force of the bending traslated to the grooved area causing bending around the groove? Why is 2.5 degrees the recommended Rear axle measurement, seems to me the 1.5 degrees would accomplish the same effect, what is the science?

2.I bought some Krytox and ran pack with that, now am seeing the krytox/"secret blend" mix, is this the new gold standard? Should I switch to this? Will it decrease times?


Cheers!

P.S. After reading through these threads for many hours over the past weeks, I feel like I am brushing with celebrity getting advice from Stan Pope and A pinehead legend.

You can angle / cant with grooved axles, many people do. you just have to be carefull on how you bend it and where at.

If you can run oil, thne yes the new process is really the way to go and so much faster.

Sporty



Ynot
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Re: Rail Riding - "How To Guide"

Post by Ynot » Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:04 am

Hi,
I've only skimmed through this guide as I'm running out of time. I didn't originally plan on RR, yet wondering if it's too late for me on my current build.

I already drilled, shaped and added most of the weight to my body. When I drilled the axle holes I made the right front 1/16 higher to 3 wheel it down the track. As I understand correctly, with RR, this is supposed to be the dominant steering wheel, correct? If that's the case can I simply use the left wheel as the dominant instead and narrow that side of the body 1/16? Would this make the procedure too complicated? If so, I'll wait until next year.

Also, I've been try to locate a RR tool locally, if I can't how do I proceed without it?

Thanks,
Tony



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derbyspeed
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Re: Rail Riding - "How To Guide"

Post by derbyspeed » Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:58 am

That is correct you want to narrow the side opposite of the raised wheel 1/16th or less. I just use a belt sander and narrow it down that way. Can be done by hand sanding as well, just measure and mark your area so you don't go too far and make it too narrow for the track.

If you don't have a rail rider tool then you will need a way to hold and bend the axle. I use the pro axle press to hold the axle, you can use a vise also. I also use the axle pliers. You may be able to use needle nose pliers to do this, I don't know what kind of tools you have available.

I like to make a groove in the axle where I want the bend to be, that way it bends straight and easily, just be careful that you don't groove it too thin and break the axle, but it's much easier to make the adjustment with the groove.

Can't tell you how to get a 1.5 or 2.5 bend, I just bend the axle enough to see the bend, someone else might be able to chime in and explain better how to get the 1.5 or 2.5 degree bend.


Mike Webb

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Re: Rail Riding - "How To Guide"

Post by *5 J's* » Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:15 pm

Ynot wrote:Hi,
I've only skimmed through this guide as I'm running out of time. I didn't originally plan on RR, yet wondering if it's too late for me on my current build.

I already drilled, shaped and added most of the weight to my body. When I drilled the axle holes I made the right front 1/16 higher to 3 wheel it down the track. As I understand correctly, with RR, this is supposed to be the dominant steering wheel, correct? If that's the case can I simply use the left wheel as the dominant instead and narrow that side of the body 1/16? Would this make the procedure too complicated? If so, I'll wait until next year.

Also, I've been try to locate a RR tool locally, if I can't how do I proceed without it?

Thanks,
Tony
You can make either wheel dominant - no issue. In your case the left wheel will be the DFW or dominant front wheel that will steer to the rail - and this is the side you will narrow the body in the area of the front wheel. This does not complicate things at all.

If you cannot locate a RR tool you can bend an axle without it. What I do is drop the axle through the wheel and mark the spot the axle exits the wheel with a Sharpie. Now remove the axle from the wheel and place in a drill. While the drill is turning hold the edge of a file to the axle at the point marked with the sharpie. What you are going to do is make a slight "score" or groove around the axle - do not go too deep - basically just make a score. Be careful to not allow the file to ride up the surface the wheel will ride on. (You may want to make the groove prior to polishing the axle - but ensure you polish BEFORE you bend the axle). Next remove the axle from the drill and make a mark on the axle head with a sharpie. This is now the 12 o'clock position. Put the axle in a vice such that the score is at the top of the jaws with the axle head facing up and the 12 o'clock position away from you. Now place a flat blade screwdriver on the score and tap the end of the flat blade screwdriver with a mallet to bend the axle towards the 12 o'clock. If you can cant you rear wheels you want approximately 3 degrees on bend in the rear axle. For the DFW axle you will want about a 1.5 degree bend. If not using the RR tool - make sure you know what 1.5 and 3 degrees looks like. 1.5 is barely perceptible. I recommend you practice on a test axle or two.

When you install the rear axles you will place the 12 o'clock mark on the axles UP to provide negative camber (axle heads will be higher then the tips). For the DFW you will put install the axle with the mark at the 9 o'clock position. This will likely provide way too much steer, so you will roll the axle counter clockwise to turn some of the 1.5 degrees into positive camber until the amount of desired steer is obtained. 6 o'clock is all positive camber - 9 o'clock is all toe-in.

It can get tricky to rotate the axle one installed so some people cut or file a groove into the axle head to allow for turning with a small flat blade screwdriver.



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Re: Rail Riding - "How To Guide"

Post by Ynot » Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:23 pm

I managed to locate both the Rail Rider and Axel Press by DW a few cities away, so I'm in luck.

My body is already 1 11/16, a 1/16 less than normal already. Will the additional 1/16, then 1/8 be to tight for the track?

Tony

Edit: *5 J's*, just saw your post.
Last edited by Ynot on Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.



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Re: Rail Riding - "How To Guide"

Post by *5 J's* » Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:28 pm

derbyspeed wrote: Can't tell you how to get a 1.5 or 2.5 bend, I just bend the axle enough to see the bend, someone else might be able to chime in and explain better how to get the 1.5 or 2.5 degree bend.
I'm sure there are better ways, but when I started making RR and wasn't sure what a 3 degree bend would look like, I made two parallel line in Microsoft word, then rotated one 3 degrees, making 3 degree angle. I printed this out, then once I bent an axle I would compare the axle to the printed angle. It is not critical to have exactly 3 degrees or exactly 1.5 degrees, I would however make sure that the rears have the same angle.



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derbyspeed
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Re: Rail Riding - "How To Guide"

Post by derbyspeed » Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:35 pm

*5 J's* wrote:
derbyspeed wrote: Can't tell you how to get a 1.5 or 2.5 bend, I just bend the axle enough to see the bend, someone else might be able to chime in and explain better how to get the 1.5 or 2.5 degree bend.
I'm sure there are better ways, but when I started making RR and wasn't sure what a 3 degree bend would look like, I made two parallel line in Microsoft word, then rotated one 3 degrees, making 3 degree angle. I printed this out, then once I bent an axle I would compare the axle to the printed angle. It is not critical to have exactly 3 degrees or exactly 1.5 degrees, I would however make sure that the rears have the same angle.
Excellent 5 J's! I ordered a pre-bent axle and have used that as a guide, never thought of using Word to check the angle. I agree that it's not all that critical on the degrees.


Mike Webb

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Re: Rail Riding - "How To Guide"

Post by *5 J's* » Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:38 pm

Ynot wrote:I managed to locate both the Rail Rider and Axel Press by DW a few cities away, so I'm in luck.

My body is already 1 11/16, a 1/16 less than normal already. Will the additional 1/16, then 1/8 be to tight for the track?

Tony

Edit: *5 J's*, just saw your post.
Is the entire side 1/16" narrower? You want the DFW to be inset 1/16" to 1/8" relative to the REAR wheel directly behind it. This is what keeps the rears off the rail. If the entire body is narrower you don't have the required offset to keep the rear off the rail.



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Re: Rail Riding - "How To Guide"

Post by *5 J's* » Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:42 pm

derbyspeed wrote:Excellent 5 J's! I ordered a pre-bent axle and have used that as a guide, never thought of using Word to check the angle. I agree that it's not all that critical on the degrees.
Eventually I ordered a set of grooved axles, one bent, for a league car. I do use this axle as my gauge now, but the printed angle produced many first place cars. :D



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Re: Rail Riding - "How To Guide"

Post by Ynot » Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:51 pm

s the entire side 1/16" narrower? You want the DFW to be inset 1/16" to 1/8" relative to the REAR wheel directly behind it. This is what keeps the rears off the rail. If the entire body is narrower you don't have the required offset to keep the rear off the rail.
Yes, the entire side is already 1/16 narrower. I had to cut my own block and all I had at the time was just shy of an official size BSA block. Sorry to throw this out there, but what did I know at the time? Start over or continue on?



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Stan Pope
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Re: Rail Riding - "How To Guide"

Post by Stan Pope » Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:08 pm

Ynot wrote:Yes, the entire side is already 1/16 narrower. I had to cut my own block and all I had at the time was just shy of an official size BSA block. Sorry to throw this out there, but what did I know at the time? Start over or continue on?
Do something to get the rear wheel behind the DFW outside the DFW by 1/16 to 1/8". For instance, glue a small section of popcycle stick (or other wood) across that rear axle hole! (If there is already a drilled axle hole, drill the add-on first, then align the two holes with a spare axle as you apply glue and press the add-on against the body.)

You could simply extend the rear axle an extra 1/16", but most folks like to keep the hub-body clearance small.

You could force an offset by careful alignment of the rear axles, but the rear is narrow which makes the adjustment more critical.


Stan
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Re: Rail Riding - "How To Guide"

Post by Ynot » Wed Apr 06, 2011 2:51 pm

Stan,
Thanks for the fix. I had some scraps that were perfect for this. Glued and waiting.

Tony



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Re: Rail Riding - "How To Guide"

Post by Ynot » Wed Apr 06, 2011 6:12 pm

My body is dry and awaiting paint prep.The rear end is now 1.75", the front end I left alone and still less a 1/16. DFW is Left.

Meanwhile in the axle dept. I've been flashing and straightening. Can I put a groove in the axle for less contact surface and to allow for graphite or is this no longer a good idea. I saw this in Meades book. I've also seen multiple grooves per axle somewhere online. Is this better or worse? Should this practice not be combined with cantering for any reason?



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Re: Rail Riding - "How To Guide"

Post by *5 J's* » Thu Apr 07, 2011 5:30 am

Ynot wrote:My body is dry and awaiting paint prep.The rear end is now 1.75", the front end I left alone and still less a 1/16. DFW is Left.

Meanwhile in the axle dept. I've been flashing and straightening. Can I put a groove in the axle for less contact surface and to allow for graphite or is this no longer a good idea. I saw this in Meades book. I've also seen multiple grooves per axle somewhere online. Is this better or worse? Should this practice not be combined with cantering for any reason?
We are not allowed to grooved axled in our Pack so I have no experience with grooved axles and graphite. I would say if grooves provide an advantage it would be quite small and the risk for messing up the surface is too great of a risk. I would not do it.

In league racing I use Krytox oil and groove these axles - but I can tell you from experience it's real easy to mess up a good axle, and once grooved you have to be REAL careful to not bend an axle. A slight unintentional bend and you will lose any benefit gained from the grooves.

My two cents anyway...



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Re: Rail Riding - "How To Guide"

Post by Ynot » Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:50 am

Makes sense. Thanks



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