Lubrication & Break-In Procedure

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Davhamm
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Re: Lubrication & Break-In Procedure

Post by Davhamm »

Yes, the 2nd to last section of track this year was very poorly lined up and I think most cars jumped.

So then the question is where would you rather loose the energy? Would you make the wheels rougher so they hold the track better?

Thinking through the physics. There are 2 things that would cause lateral motion for a RR 1) a rough spot in the lane surface 2) rough spot in the rail.

2) Wheel gets forced sideways. (wheel is riding against nail, so all of car gets pushed sideway, {energy loss in sideways motion of tire on track, lower friction less loss, but more sideways motion). If bump is strong enough car goes till other wheel contacts rail (remainder of sideways motion loss in friction transfer to rail). .... if Force not enough for high friction wheel to move much all energy is loss in that interface and outside wheel will not touch.... low friction wheel will slide till other wheel hits... not sure which is worse.

1) This gets a lot more difficult. With high friction wheel it will stick and follow rough spot depend on wheel / axle / spot alignment the car might follow the wheel might slide on axle, With low friction wheel it might slide over rough spot and not get moved sideways.

Remember the high friction wheel will have more sticktion so it won't start as fast, and will give some energy up all the way down the track trying to separate from the track. (The only reason the wheels rotate instead of sliding is the friction of the track to the wheel.)

I have started to talk physics time for the text book boys to join in on this one... I have neglected Moments of Inertia and other body rotational issues.

My logic has been to reduce friction where ever possible maybe a bad thought.

:oops: my daughter just reminded me since we ran with new wheels we didn't touch the treads this year.. So that video is a "high" friction wheel... :paperbag:
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Pinewood Daddy
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Re: Lubrication & Break-In Procedure

Post by Pinewood Daddy »

Stan always preaches about differential friction on the rears causing them to steer the car! Low speed test will look like the car is steering to the rail but if the rears are steering on the track one of the rears will be rubbing on the rail.

I do low speed testing on a 6ft board elevated 1.5". Then I use the last section of my track elevated another 3.5" on top of the low speed board, nearly 6" of elevation. At the higher speed you can see how the rear end tracks as the DFW is riding the rail. I just finished aligning my son's car for Fridays race, the rear end was perfectly centered on the rail.
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sporty
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Re: Lubrication & Break-In Procedure

Post by sporty »

I have seen no slipping of the wheels , by polishing the o.d. of the wheels on wood or metal track yet.

I have polished the o.d. as good as the bore.

I did this to reduce micro vibration, caused by micro bumps that impact areas of concern for me, like light front end. If it can also reduce friction, then thats a plus also.

Yes someone would really have to do some numbers with support of backing.


just what is the breaking free force of the wheels, to go from contact to slip ? At what point does the weight and downforce of the angular forward force on the slope go fast enough to break / over ride the frictional contact force of the surface contact ?

I would think we are looking at way more speed to do this and way more sudden inerctia. for a 5 oz car.


I could be sold easy on a 1 oz or lighter car breaking friction before a 5oz car, due to less forward down force or angular down force from the slope loosing track contact before a 5oz car.

Maybe even for a micro second from transistion of the slope to the flat with a lighter car. But not so much for a heavier car, with the exception of a very light front end on a 5oz car.

3 micron and 2 micron, I have seen no slipping of the wheels on a varity of 35 foot or less tracks in person and on a 42 foot track, I believe there was no visual slipping either, through slow mo video replay.


I would agree that, a micron or sub micron o.d. wheel, would be more sensative to track joints. but less sensative to to track surfaces that are ruffer than 3 or 2 micron.


BTW, also sliding is much better than binding ! if you can slide side to side with no binding or minimal increase of overall friction. You are doinf better than with the o.d. or bore binding / slightly gripping the axle or the track.

wobbles, wiggles, are also a factor associated with binding / loss of speed due to increased friction. Not just due to no longer going in a strait line, but the sudden binding from one axle head to the body of the car.

The sudden touch and break free and then re-contacting the same friction area , can cause loss or gain of sudden friction through sliding side to side.

Reducing that with super slick processes, work well.

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sporty
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Re: Lubrication & Break-In Procedure

Post by sporty »

so what is / or would be the friction of a 1/16th thick or less razor wheels ? Compared to a standard bsa wheel. Then super polishing the o.d. is that friction then still less or great than the friction of a 1/16th thick or less razor wheel ?

A tad off topic here, but relates to polishing of the wheel o.d., since there is some dabate of sliding.

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Kenny
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Re: Lubrication & Break-In Procedure

Post by Kenny »

Sporty, I love ya man, but gotta jump in here:

Never graphite the tread of the rear wheels if you run neg camber of 2-3 degrees angle.
You want rear wheel "bite" always. You never want sliding in the rears where wheel edge and track surface meet. As track debris, or slightly misaligned track sections, and other imperfections due to wear and tear are encountered, latteral "slide" in the rear of the car is costly as it is out of control once track bite is lost even on a micro level. Buffing your rear tread with graphite - or anything else can actually hurt your time.

However, rubbing graphite onto the inner tread (edge) where your wheel contacts the rail actually helps when using bent axle with positive camber and some "toe in." ;)

K
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sporty
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Re: Lubrication & Break-In Procedure

Post by sporty »

Kenny wrote:Sporty, I love ya man, but gotta jump in here:

Never graphite the tread of the rear wheels if you run neg camber of 2-3 degrees angle.
You want rear wheel "bite" always. You never want sliding in the rears where wheel edge and track surface meet. As track debris, or slightly misaligned track sections, and other imperfections due to wear and tear are encountered, latteral "slide" in the rear of the car is costly as it is out of control once track bite is lost even on a micro level. Buffing your rear tread with graphite - or anything else can actually hurt your time.

However, rubbing graphite onto the inner tread (edge) where your wheel contacts the rail actually helps when using bent axle with positive camber and some "toe in." ;)

K

Can you quote from my post, where I was refering to graphite on the o.d. of the wheel ? I was conveying polishing of the o.d. of the wheel. In reference to helping reduce micro vibration.

This works better for wooden tracks. I see a better impact from doing it, Aluminuim tracks, have shown me a slightly less of a impact, but still tad better results than not.

I have not ran graphite coated o.d. wheels on a cant. but o.d. polished I have with good results. 4 to 5 years ago I tried graphite coating on the o.d. of the wheels on non canted pack rule cars.

i just never became a fan of it.

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Davhamm
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Re: Lubrication & Break-In Procedure

Post by Davhamm »

Sporty,
Whats the difference in a highly polished wheel, and one burnished with graphite? Not sure which one provides the lowest friction / smoothest surface?
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sporty
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Re: Lubrication & Break-In Procedure

Post by sporty »

Davhamm wrote:Sporty,
Whats the difference in a highly polished wheel, and one burnished with graphite? Not sure which one provides the lowest friction / smoothest surface?

K, i'll give this a try with a few things to ponder.

1- the graphite can actually clump up or move or wear more in some places and cause build up right next to this area. actually can cause more run out, out of round wheel, more wobble.

It can also cause like I would like to try and explain as the skid / skip and go.

If you have one area more lube on the o.d. of the wheel and it wears or becomes uneven , ect. It can cause more grabbing in those areas where it has worn down.

Graphite is hard to evenly coat on the o.d. surface without having other factors come into play, where it wears evenly or does not leave actually raised spots on the wheels.

A good clean wheel is better to have, polishing the o.d. of the wheels is not leaving material to wear or cause a chance for debris to cause more out of round.

you already pick up enough junk from other cars lube, that is getting layed onto the track during there runs that end up on your're wheels after a day of racing.

It's one of those things, see dome do it , other's do not. if you feel it works for you, then keep at it, until it does not work for you.

See thats why i myself, skip certain topics and comment in others.

i may no longer do it, i may not agree with it. but you and the child the builder are what counts most ! it's what you want to try and do !

We often forget this, even me at times, I have to remind myself from time to time.

Many of my processes are ones I have found work for me and what I prefer to use. Many I share, not to say you gotta use this or do this, but perhaps the info has always been for me about sharing what works for us, are struggles and how we learns or came about a better or improved process for ourselves.

sporty
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Re: Lubrication & Break-In Procedure

Post by doct1010 »

Kenny wrote:Never graphite the tread of the rear wheels if you run neg camber of 2-3 degrees angle. K
I would go so far as to say ANY wheel cambered or not, for essentially same reasons cited. Slide vs. roll. In fact any debris on wheel, graphite included, can slow a car considerably.
*5 J's*
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Re: Lubrication & Break-In Procedure

Post by *5 J's* »

PD - how long is your test board? I made a 4ft to align via Stan's cantilever method. Two of our cars aligned very nice and quickly - not coincidentally these cars had the best looking axle hole (rears - zero toe, consistent camber : fronts zero toe/camber). Note: toe and camber for the DFW was via axle bend. The other two cars seemed to align okay over the 4ft board at a slow speed - but they had a wiggle on the 32' test track at speed. These two cars had noted variance in toe and/or camber - but it was slight - so I decided to keep the blocks and correct via shims. One was readily corrected - the other gave me fits for hours - and will be further worked tonight. Next year I will heed the experts advice and discard these blocks earlier.

Anyway - I wonder if I would have discovered an alignment error on the alignment board if I did some higher speed tests - bu this may require a test board longer than 4'.
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Re: Lubrication & Break-In Procedure

Post by *5 J's* »

PD - never mind - I see you already posted the info above. 6' board elevated to 1.5" for slow speed, nearly 6" for high speed.
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Re: Lubrication & Break-In Procedure

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*5 J's* wrote:PD - never mind - I see you already posted the info above. 6' board elevated to 1.5" for slow speed, nearly 6" for high speed.
I use the lest section of my track (8ft) for the higher speed tests.
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Re: Lubrication & Break-In Procedure

Post by AlabamaDan »

How fluffy is this pipe cleaner y'all are using?
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Re: Lubrication & Break-In Procedure

Post by FatSebastian »

AlabamaDan wrote:How fluffy is this pipe cleaner y'all are using?
Great question AlDan. Can folks state the brand and type of cleaner they are using (preferably with a part or some other ID number)?
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Re: Lubrication & Break-In Procedure

Post by doct1010 »

AlabamaDan wrote:How fluffy is this pipe cleaner y'all are using?
We all used a chenille (sp), not sure about others. It is available at craft stores, tends to thicker and fluffier than typical tobacco cleaner.
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