Inadvertent three wheeler

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What of kids who are using slots end up making an inadvertent 3 wheeler?

Poll ended at Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:50 pm

Less than 5 percent
1
13%
5 to 10 percent
0
No votes
10 to 20 percent
1
13%
20 to 40 percent
2
25%
40 to 60 percent
4
50%
 
Total votes: 8

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Noskills
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Inadvertent three wheeler

Post by Noskills »

What percent of typical scouts who are required to use the slots end up inadvertently making a three wheeler?
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macd
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Re: Inadvertent three wheeler

Post by macd »

Where's the 95+% choice? That's my vote.
Our pack and district require four rolling wheels.
This year we used a drill press with a fence.
My son drilled 4 holes without moving the fence. (He used a spacer for the rear wheels to give negative camber.)
Even trying our best to get all four on the same plane, one of the front wheels was clearly dominant.
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Darin McGrew
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Re: Inadvertent three wheeler

Post by Darin McGrew »

In my experience with the kids at church, it's well over 60%.
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Noskills
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Re: Inadvertent three wheeler

Post by Noskills »

I have made 2 cars with slots, both have the non DFW 1-2 16th of a inch elevated without trying. Funny. I now understand the silliness of the "all four wheels touching" rule.
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Re: Inadvertent three wheeler

Post by idpwdnut »

Three years ago my DE came to me about concerns about a wheel being raced and we going to allow it for district. I told him that the rule simply stated that the car must have 4 wheel connected to the wood via nail type axles. The rules did not state that all wheels had to or did not have to touch the track or even where the wheels needed to be placed. He asked if that was "fair". I told him fair or not, we were 1 week out from district and it was to late to make a change to rules. He was going to be at the district race and I told him we would look at cars at that time.

As cars were staged on the track, I pointed out ones that had a raced wheel. Now keep in mind, some of the raised wheels were on the front of the cars, some were on the rear of the car, and at least two cars had two wheels raised, one on the front and the opposite side rear also. The DE then saw that some cars with a raised wheel performed very well and others performed extremely poorly. After the race we talked about what we saw. It gave me the opportunity to point out that even though a raised wheel can be a speed technique, that if other aspects at done properly the car will not perform well. With the number of cars with rear raised wheel and the number that performed poorly, I was able to point out that many of the Cub Scout/parent build teams inadvertently had a raised wheel. His diffenently had a paradigm shift. It was a good education experience.

As a funny side note, when my son and I were building his last car, we drilled the holes using a Pro-Body II tool with a raised front wheel. It was a very thing rail car. After glueing in the weight, painting and putting on decals, we finally put the wheels on. We had a 4 on the floor wheel :wall: We bent the raised wheel axle to get it lifted up. The car looked like it was designed for an oval track with one front wheel having negative camber and the other having positive. It all worked out good. Won den, pack and 2nd overall at District that year (got beat by his best friend who he helped build his car) Point is if we can try to build a raised wheel car and have all 4 wheels touching how likely is it for a team that is just putting the wheels on quickly to inadvertent have on lifted?
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Re: Inadvertent three wheeler

Post by WI_Dad »

The 2nd car that my son and I ever built was an accidental 3 wheeler which is a pretty good trick since his Boy Pioneers group uses the Pinecar kits with one piece axles. At first I was looking at it like wth did we do here. :wall: Then something clicked :idea: hey this might work. Obviously, this all happened without doing much reseach. The following year we did it on purpose and he was first in his Train and first at district.

This year we learned even more and made some pretty light, smooth running wheels. Probably our fastest car yet.

Idpwdnut was talking about rules and interpretations and was dead on in his assessment of their rules. Good for you, making the point with your DE.

Our rules are pretty simple. As long as we use the kit we are given, meet some dimensions, meet weight, no aftermarket stuff except decals and the like, use the axle slots, and don't cut the axles (to make them each two piece). We can do pretty much anything we want. Does this give the guys who have a machine shop in the basement an advantage. Maybe a bit, but they still have to execute. I think it challenges kids and gives dads a chance to teach how to solve problems, think outside the box, develop ideas, network with people who have tools, etc... It also reduces the chance of DQ'ing someone because their car doesn't conform to what some stringent set of rules says their car should be. I will now step off the soapbox. thank you :D
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Re: Inadvertent three wheeler

Post by j.m. »

At our Districts race last weekend, I was in charge of the work area. I was to make sure all scouts who enetered the area had safty glasses on. While I stood watch, there were at least 20% of the cars beeing worked on to get that 4th wheel to touch. The gu incharge brought a "flat plate" to inspect the 4 weels touching. That plate was way flatter than most peoples kitchen table, and to me, is a silly rule. Like others have said, it is one of the hardest specs to meet. It is harder to get 4 wheels touching then it is to get the weight in spec. Besides, most of those cars that had to be worked to get the 4th wheels to touch, were cars that wouldn't have gained anything by having it a "3" wheeler. I could tell by watching them adjust the axel, that they were not trying to make a 3 wheeler. Our car had all 4 wheels touching, but the non dfw didn't have any pressure on the axel. It was using the slop in the bore to allow the wheel to touch enough to spin, but not really have much friction. You can tell by watching the adults adjust the car, how seriuos the car was built, and what they are trying to utilze in speed technics.
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Re: Inadvertent three wheeler

Post by derbyspeed »

Noskills wrote:I have made 2 cars with slots, both have the non DFW 1-2 16th of a inch elevated without trying. Funny. I now understand the silliness of the "all four wheels touching" rule.
Our council still uses the 4 wheels rule and I am hoping to get them to change this and here's why I believe it is a counterproductive rule:

We all know that cub scouts will get help in building their car, but the emphasis is on just helping and allowing the scout to do as much as he can to build a fast and good looking derby racing vehicle. I think all rules should at least be based on a cub scout being able to build a car completely by himself. (to a degree, obviously there are some safety issues)

In other words, the scout should be able to put the car together and that be the result of how a rule is determined, if that makes sense.

Modifications from that point on can be determined to set a standard for the race. I doubt that anyone would consider making that 4th wheel touch, a modification for improvement, but of course polishing axles, sanding wheels, etc. would be modifications that allows the scout to explore ways to improve his car and himself.

I don't know too many cub scouts that can build derby car with all 4 wheels touching when adults have a very tough time making that happen themselves.

I have seen where cars were built with 4 wheels down and then during the race, one wheel comes up because it hits hard at the stop or the nail is just loose in the slot. That car then becomes one of the fastest if not thee fastest car on the track. A question was raised as to whether the car should be repaired to get the wheel to touch. The answer to that is no. Scouts aren't allowed to work on their cars if they are slow, why should they be required to work on their cars if they are too fast. Once the car is checked in there should be no more questions. Obviously if the car is damaged due to a malfunction in the track or a crash then there is some leeway.

Eliminating the 4 wheels down rule also eliminates a lot of problems at the check-in table for the scout and the staff. It's not an issue anymore and no one has an advantage as long as everyone knows that you don't have to have all 4 wheels down.

Scenario for Cub Scout who follows the 4 wheels down rule:
Cub Scout has car tuned at home and ready to race to his best ability and feels it's as fast as he can make it.
Cub Scout gets to race day and finds out the wheel doesn't touch like it did at home.
Cub Scout now has to modify his settings to make the wheel touch.
Cub Scout has probably just lost most if not all improvements he made at home, because he is rushed.
Cub Scout stresses out next year as to whether his car will pass at the check-in table, along with mom and dad.

I don't know if 4 wheels touching is a silly rule, but it is definitely hard to enforce and very hard to achieve for any scout.
Mike Webb

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