axle polished grit level - oil vs dry lube

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chromegsx
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axle polished grit level - oil vs dry lube

Post by chromegsx »

Any thoughts on if a level of polish (grit level) for dry lube would be better suited to a much lower grit than for oil (highest grit possible)? IOW would a car get slower on dry lube if axle is polished above some theoretical grit value?
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Re: axle polished grit level - oil vs dry lube

Post by sporty »

Yikes.


You asked a good question.


I have not ran oil in awhile. So my info is perhaps a bit outdated. One of the current top 5 ranked adult league racers, would have to chime in on this one.

I always polished my axles the same for oil or dry. Super shiny and super click. I went to sub micron levels.


I alway use regular micro surfaces micro mesh. at around 600 rpm, for the lower grits and when I got the the 12,000 grits on up. I had to be carefully and process became more touchy. as 1 micron and lower strips are easy to wreck or not do right in the process. Id have to look as i forget where I use to get my sub micron strips from. It may be posted around here somewhere.

but the micro mesh regular to 12,000 grit. 1 micron. then I bought the 1 micron and sub micron strips.

Mothers polish is about 1 to 2 micron, fyi.
I also use a nice piece of leather or shammy ss a good final burnish for the final.


The 1 micron and sub micron strips. melt easy or can wreck easy and you have to practice a few times to get it right,. to much pressure, you have junk, and move to slow you have junk. theres a trick to doing it right.


But maybe others due something differet with the axles for better performance. as many of the top racers, are using more than just oil, they use wax or a silicone or ect on the axle too. And they may be going less fine, to get the wax or silicones to stick better to the surface.

So, maybe they will chime in and reveal the latest and best. but they may not. they work hard for those speed improvements and giving them up, is not easy.

Sporty
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Re: axle polished grit level - oil vs dry lube

Post by whodathunkit »

sporty wrote: Id have to look as i forget where I use to get my sub micron strips from. It may be posted around here somewhere.
http://www.derbytalk.com/viewtopic.php? ... 5&start=15" target="_blank
Micro-surface finishing products inc. ;)
So, maybe they will chime in and reveal the latest and best. but they may not. they work hard for those speed improvements and giving them up, is not easy.

Sporty
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Re: axle polished grit level - oil vs dry lube

Post by 5kidsracing »

I polish the same for oil or graphite... I don't think going over 12000 grit has any impact on speed and I usually go to just 8000 grit. A fast car has more to do with alignment then it has to do with axle polishing. Use the q-tip stem/Novus 2 method on your wheel bores. With both graphite and oil add a polish/wax to your wheel bores. Liquid Glass is pretty cheap for the typical scout, but Legend and Red Rocket is faster. With graphite leave the axles sanded/polished (Brasso) nothing else.... with oil spray the axle generously with Jig-A-Loo or Dupont Blue can spray and let dry. With graphite I would use Hob-e-lube, with oil use Krytox or a Krytox blend. When applying oil put 2-3 drops on the axle over the Jig/Dupont and then install the wheel on the axle and then install in car. Never take apart, wipe off or touch the axle where the wheel rides. Contamination is your enemy and alot of racers do everything right and then are slow because of lint or a hair.
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Re: axle polished grit level - oil vs dry lube

Post by Speedster »

Questions. Scout racing Graphite only.
1. Doc Jobe Lecture 4. If I understand it, a large axle (.087) and small bore is best. Using Max V's 4094 axles, would I gain anything by sanding as opposed to simply polishing the zinc plating with Brasso?
2. The car will make a maximum of 12 runs. I thought graphite goes directly on the plastic. Will graphite stick to wax better than the plastic or is the wax there in case the graphite wears out?
3. Where do I buy Legend and Red Rocket?
Thank you.
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Re: axle polished grit level - oil vs dry lube

Post by sporty »

Theres a reason. I liked to go sub micron.

With graphite use. naturally the more you run. the slower the car gets after so many runs.

I found, that added extra work, paid off with the car not slowing down as much.

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Re: axle polished grit level - oil vs dry lube

Post by 5kidsracing »

Speedster wrote:Questions. Scout racing Graphite only.
1. Doc Jobe Lecture 4. If I understand it, a large axle (.087) and small bore is best. Using Max V's 4094 axles, would I gain anything by sanding as opposed to simply polishing the zinc plating with Brasso?
2. The car will make a maximum of 12 runs. I thought graphite goes directly on the plastic. Will graphite stick to wax better than the plastic or is the wax there in case the graphite wears out?
3. Where do I buy Legend and Red Rocket?
Thank you.
A larger axle gives you a more stable car, which is faster than a less stable car. If allowed by your rules I would run an axle .091-.093, if not then I turn the BSA axle so that the car runs on the largest part of the axle. I don't know the answer about zinc plating.... :(

My kids cars all run 12 runs at their scout race with no fall off in speed. I don't know if the graphite sticks better, I just know the car runs faster with a wax in the bore than without.
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Re: axle polished grit level - oil vs dry lube

Post by sporty »

I forgot to add in, we typically ran 20 to 22 runs at council. Local pack was not a issue on just going 1 micron. because it was 12 runs also. Around 16 to 18 runs is where I would see the differance with the sub micron work on the axles.
Here is some way more indepth info.

Basically, when I ran testing. for this particular focused area. I would run the car 20 runs. I forget the exact number. It was to simulate for how many runs we ran at council.


I would pull the axles and, I would eye ball them, but mostly would re-polish them and I would find out, that I could not really re polish the axle at 1 micron around 20 runs. With doing the sub micron axle prep.

But with only going to 1 micron, and not sub micron. I found at 20 runs, or as I said right around there, might be 16 or 18 runs I seen that the wear was around 2 microns. I had to start at 2 microns and re work back to 1 micron to get back to 1 micron.

were with using the sub micron process. I only had to rework it to 1 micron.

Not a huge differance, but I was able to find the differance in wear, between going sub micron versus not and the track times were better after many runs, then not doing so.

And keep in mind this was graphite racing.

Our pack and council, does not allow oil. And heck oil testing. I could run 30 plus runs with really no drop off in times.
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Re: axle polished grit level - oil vs dry lube

Post by Speedster »

Thank you, Gentlemen. I will try anything and everything.
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Re: axle polished grit level - oil vs dry lube

Post by chromegsx »

Wow... must of been a good question.

Reason I ask is I read somewhere about trouble getting graphite to stick to axle, which I had trouble with last year and just went with it as was and we ended up 4th by about just shy of a car length. short track though. got beat on the starts till the flat and then just hung there on the flat. first time rail riding, but I think we may not do that this year. produced consistent times though. We were also using full weight wheels while the top 3 all had lightened wheels. That will be first change this year. and with the extras I'm learning this year I'm hoping to give a run at the track record (old bumpy wooden track with bad transitions). I'm having my son do ALL the work this year (alst year was mostly body work) except some dangerous stuff like tread reduction unless I figure out a safe way for him to do it.

Since last year, I've learned of many new techniques and was researching oil vs graphite vs wood vs alum vs awana (My boys are in AWANA) vs scout vs ahhh my head's going to explode... :whew:

So I started digging and searching on oil methods and came across a claim that you didn't need such a high polish for graphite. a lower grit would help the graphite stick to the axle. made sense to me what didn't make sense was that many people including the fast ones go to a much higher polish anyway...

If I follow the responses correctly it seems that the extra polish time is especially beneficial for races like my son. I forget how many we ran last year but there just over 70 cars and a 4 lane track on double elimination tournament. Higher polish lets the car remain "relatively" fast after the majority of the graphite has been lost.

sporty, your a gold mine of information. you should write a book. ;) People would still pay not to have to do all the searching that I've done. Not sure I would (I'm pretty cheap :thinking: ) but people are generally not attached to their money when it comes to time and effort.

5kidsracing, you bring up another thing I've been unable to unearth so far... spraying jig-a-loo or other on axle. something about flashing teflon or silicone to the axle... anyone ever hear of it?
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Re: axle polished grit level - oil vs dry lube

Post by Topspin.D »

There's a nice little discussion on jig-a-loo at the following link. 5Kids breaks it down.

http://www.pwdracing.proboards.com/inde ... hread=4510" target="_blank
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Re: axle polished grit level - oil vs dry lube

Post by sporty »

chromegsx,


Thanks for the kind words. I have been asked more than one to write a book. even by a known publisher and book writer. one that does the derby books.

My grammar is horrible and I know this. and Most of it it here found on derby talk, the info I have shared and learned.

Its like going back almost 12 years and seeing how I developed and got really fast over time. I worked hard at it and I put tons of hours in and built many cars.

Thats how you learn and get good, Just spend tons of time and years, getting better.


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Re: axle polished grit level - oil vs dry lube

Post by 5kidsracing »

Like Sporty, I enjoy trying to help people with their pwd builds.... I know that over here at Derbytalk most of the traffic is newer scouts & scout dads looking to improve their pwd experience and that is what this forum is geared towards. For the "once a year" builder graphite is easier to get right. Oil done right is faster than graphite, but most scout racers don't do it right. Just replacing graphite with oil will not be faster... it will be cleaner, but not faster.

When you run oil you are utilizing hydrodynamic lubrication.... Ideally the wheel bore and axle are not touching and you are running on a thin film of oil between the wheel bore and the axle. You wheel bore is polished and waxed (PTFE product) and your axle is polished and sprayed with a boundary layer lubricant. This boundary layer lubricant fills in all the ridges in the surface of the axle making it smooth. The guys who do this all the time have tried many types of waxes, boundary layer lubricants and oils. I suggested that a wax like Liquid Glass, Legend or Red Rocket are good waxes, Dupont Blue can Teflon Spray or Jig-A-Loo are good boundary layer lubricants and that a Krytox blend is a good oil. Insane guys like me have tried many, many products and these are the most user friendly and provide great results. That being said you have to do it right to be fast and the information is out there on how to do it.. For the "once a year" builder running oil right is a little expensive, has a learning curve and is probably a little outside the scope of a scout/scout helper build.

If you really want to try something cutting edge.... think about running teflon coated axles. Get rid of the Teflon wax step and use the boundary layer lubricant on the wheel bores instead of the axles. I have won 4 PWDR Championships that way....

Happy New Year everybody:)
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Re: axle polished grit level - oil vs dry lube

Post by rpcarpe »

Had a nice chat with Glenn Jewkes last week. I wondered why he didn't have any sandpaper over 3,000 grit. And his main competitor, [no advertising for this vendor], didn't have any over 8,000 grit?

Answer: No speed gain going to 12k and 60k polishing papers. I think I remember 8k for oil, 3k for graphite.
Makes my workshop easier to outfit, O'Reilly auto part stores will order in 3,000 grit if you ask nice.

Good Luck!
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Re: axle polished grit level - oil vs dry lube

Post by chromegsx »

rpcarpe wrote:Had a nice chat with Glenn Jewkes last week. I wondered why he didn't have any sandpaper over 3,000 grit. And his main competitor, [no advertising for this vendor], didn't have any over 8,000 grit?

Answer: No speed gain going to 12k and 60k polishing papers. I think I remember 8k for oil, 3k for graphite.
Makes my workshop easier to outfit, O'Reilly auto part stores will order in 3,000 grit if you ask nice.

Good Luck!
No speed gain for how many runs? which would different for oil and graphite.

Unfortunately we can't compare the competitor...See this post.
Can you pm me the competitor or be creative.

Since being pointed to pwdr... thanks topspin...and some creative searching, I've been able to find lots of info that I haven't been able to find before on pwdr and here at derbytalk. Still trying to come up with a plan and where to start with it.
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