Alignment, Axle wholes. Drilling / Cant. (Pictures).

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sporty
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Alignment, Axle wholes. Drilling / Cant. (Pictures).

Post by sporty »

I actually tossed this together a few months ago, but I never got around to posting it.

I did something like this on here awhile back. But since again it became a hot topic on here. I thought I would do it again, but a bit differently.

The first time I did this it was videos.

This is photos.


Now, There our many different ways to do this. This is one way.

I like to take the wheel for the rears, on a exstended wheel base car to use as my starting point for marking my lines.

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Using a carpenter's square. I then draw my line across the wood.

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Example, Right rear, (picture shot makes it look angled)

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Now, side view, right rear and right front.

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I like to use the pro body jig. To drill a 1/16th deep starter whole.

Reason why, every time I try and drill without a starter whole. I end up having some kind of off alignment in my axle whole drilling.

Others can do this, and don't need the pro body jig to drill a starter whole, but for me it works. So I stick with it.

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This next picture. You can see the starter wholes on the wood. But you also see a 7 inch long rod. This is how I drill my cant. I use this rod and tape it to the wood.

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Now This is how it looks, when I have set it up, to drill my right rear axle whole.

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One of the tricky things, is moving the wood around to match up the drill bit to the pre-drilled starter whole in the wood.

It's very important to get this right. Some people use a fence to keep the car in place. I just hold it with my hand.

Since I tape the rod to the wood, It stays put and does not move around on me.

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Another example of the rod taped to the wood, I just use small clear packing tape. Yes the rod in this photo is longer then 7 inches. But not needed. It jsut helps me to check and double check, nothing has moved or shifted.

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Getting ready to drill the left rear axle whole. (one of the most common issues, is not a flat and level drill press table. When you start shifting the wood around and have to drill in a different spot. You may have to do this a few times with practice wood. To check if your table is truely flat and level and square. My drill press is cheap one and has a smaller table. So I have to shift things around abit.

I prefer to have the whole piece of wood on the table as much as I can.

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Again, Lining up that drill bit to the whole, dead center is very important before you start drilling.

I move and shift the wood around and raise and lower the drill press with the drill bit in it, not running and get it all set up and ready to go. I also then turn the drill press on and do a pre- trail test run, because sometimes when you turn the drill press on, it can move a little bit or the drill chuck/ drill press, if its a cheaper model. May change things a little bit.

So better to check twice before actually drilling.

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Now Checking your work ! no since spending hours on trying to correct bad axle whole drilling. Sure sometimes you have a axel that is not strait and you may need to do some minor tweeking.

However, if you are off buy a good amount, It's better to start over with a new piece of wood.

There is a few ways to check your axle whole drilling alignment for your axles.

Not everyone has gauge pins. turning your drill bit around can work to,

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I recommend two drill bits. #44 for stock axle size.

Carpenter square, check.

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Now hard to see in this picture below.

But I take the carpenter square and I try and dead center the edge of the carpenter square with the axle whole and the edge should be in the center of the drill bit / pin gauge, all the way down the drill bit or pin gauge, center.

This means you have drilled a decent axle whole and there is no toe in or toe out, Now naturally nothing is perfect, and you could still have a tiny issue. but this is going to still help you check your work and get it as close as the human eye allows for you to check you're work.

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Here is some more pictures.

this picture here, is the rail rider right front axle. I drill a cant in mine, so I dont have to bend my axle as much, when adjusting and tuning the rail rider.

For me, its a preference. But I found in doing this, made it allot easier for me to tune, why ? a axle with less bend, is more forgiving in tuning. A axle with more bend is more sensative and a tiny, super tiny turn, makes a big differance. and for scout / more rookie based builders, this is easier.

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Rears with two #44 drill bits inserted.

Yes you can see some serious cant on them ! But this is also a cant that is some what close to the same, as done with the silver bullet.

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A few more pic's


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Another example:

Harder to do and use, is a ruler. You can use the edge of the line, you created as a guide to check the axle wholes also. But harder to do. Because the reason I like the carpenter square, is due to it's a angle tool and can be guided on the side of the wood. Where as a standard ruler can't so easily.

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But I do realize, that, as I mentioned earlier, not everyone has all the tools. So, something is better than nothing at times.

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Now, what the rule does do decent for you.

You can measure the height of the pin gauges / drill bits, in the axle whole. to check to see if your cant is equal and the same on both sides.

Keep in mind. YOU have to have those pin gauges or drill bits inserted into the axle wholes the same length ! You have to do this ! you have to measure at the same spot and distance ! or you will not get the right reading !!

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Now it's impossible for me to cover everything, But this guide should be good enough to help you out.

I did leave out checking your drill press table and checking your drill bit is true and square. this is posted elsewhere on here somewhere. LoL.

But was hopig this helps some of you. Because it was the #1 question I was asked and seen posted this year. Okay, maybe #2 or #4. j/k


Sporty
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Re: Alignment, Axle wholes. Drilling / Cant. (Pictures).

Post by LightninBoy »

Awesome.

Normally I bend axles to achieve cant. This year though, I drilled the cant (rears only, DFW axle is still bent). I used the pro body jig / spacer technique and practiced on several blocks. Still, my success rate is only a little over 50%. we used one of the "good" blocks to build the cubbys car and its been a dream to align. I'm never going back to bending. I do want to bring my success rate up ... ironically however I've purchased two pre-drilled blocks online and both were faulty.
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Re: Alignment, Axle wholes. Drilling / Cant. (Pictures).

Post by sporty »

LightninBoy,

One of the hardest things I feel to do, In the beginning, is doing good axle wholes, alignment with those axle wholes is everything in my book.

And when you are new to it, it's first hard just to comprehend it all. Then to get it and do it. It takes a bit of practice. Even I have issues as times. But the key is being able to check it and decide to start over with a new piece of wood or spend more time trying to tune and correct with bent axles.

Some really like using bent axles, Me, I feel its a nightmare of time loss.

But some simply are better at it then me. when atempting to use bent axles for the cant.

Any thing here that I posted, that can help someone improve, then thats a good thing.

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Re: Alignment, Axle wholes. Drilling / Cant. (Pictures).

Post by DerbyDash »

Sporty,

Thank you for posting the process and pcitures. They are very helpful for me since I have limited building experience. Have a geneal question that the pictures bring up for me. Would we gain any time advantage if we canted all four wheels the way you did the rear wheels rather than going for a rail rider? It seems like canting the axles while taking some time might help our time but am wondering if alignment would become an issue. Look forward to any feedback you might have....thanks.
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Re: Alignment, Axle wholes. Drilling / Cant. (Pictures).

Post by LightninBoy »

Rail riding is kind of a basic assumption. You will be slower if you don't rail ride unless by some miracle your car rides straight down without ever touching the rail. The rear axle canting that sporty is showing is to ensure the wheels ride against the head of the axle rather than the car body. It also reduces the tread surface contact which reduces the impact of track imperfections.
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Re: Alignment, Axle wholes. Drilling / Cant. (Pictures).

Post by LightninBoy »

One thing I'm assuming here, and if true should be called out, is that for this process to work the wood block must be perfectly square. I believe that's the root cause of some of my inconsistencies in drilling.
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Re: Alignment, Axle wholes. Drilling / Cant. (Pictures).

Post by sporty »

Canting is always faster then not, in the rears, A good margin faster. For the reasons mentioned above this post.

Canting, has the wheels migrate out to the axle head, but also reduces the wheel surface friction to the track allot more, then with the entire wheel surface touching the track surface, Just overall the way to go, if your rules allow it.

Atempting to cant the front wheels the same way and run a strait runner, very very hard to do. I think its far more easier and a safer bet to do the opposite cant on the rail rider axle and tune for drift and rail rider. Far faster.

I have never seen someone run a strait runner faster then a rail runner. I would be there might only be 1 or 2 people in the whole united states that might be able to do it.

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Re: Alignment, Axle wholes. Drilling / Cant. (Pictures).

Post by Topspin.D »

Subject: Alignment, Axle wholes. Drilling / Cant. (Pictures).
LightninBoy wrote:One thing I'm assuming here, and if true should be called out, is that for this process to work the wood block must be perfectly square. I believe that's the root cause of some of my inconsistencies in drilling.
The block would need to be pretty close to perfectly square (bottom to sides) and the sides pretty close to parallel in order to drill axel holes the as shown above.

You would need a fixture (like the silver bullet or block) which is perfectly square to reference the bottom of your wood blank off of to get good accuracy in the drilling (if you're wood isn't perfect).

The pro body tool / jig does a pretty good job too because it also references off the bottom of the car body.

With either tool, the key is to have a really flat bottom. We sand one face of our blocks on a flat surface (with sand paper taped to the bench or tablesaw top) before we start drilling to make sure its perfectly flat.
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Re: Alignment, Axle wholes. Drilling / Cant. (Pictures).

Post by sporty »

I have used the block, aka the silver bullet. And the wood has to be good too, In fact for me, I have not been able to turn out good axle alignment on the silver bullet.

The above way, is the simplier and easier way in my view.

The silver bullet, requires you to sand the wood down to fit into the groove. if you get it to loose, then you will have to clamp it, or the wood will lift out or slop around some. If to tight, the bottom of the wood will not lay flat on the machined surface, it will have some angle to it.

So the wood, it needs to feel right , when you use the tool. when sliding the wood in. I learned this after going thru a few blocks of woods.

There is no perfect way to do this, there is no all in wonder tool.

The reason I use this way, is I have had lots of success with it and its easier to teach a kid with and it reduces some of the added variables in other tool uses.

I'm not saying that one tool is better then the other, Because in the end, they all serve a simulair function. To aid you in drilling a great axle whole.

measuring your wood block with a ruler is a good way to check that its true and square. Id rather pick one true and square, then atempt to let my son try and sand one down to fit into a tool. 9 times out of 10, they take to much off.

But no matter what tool you use, which way you go. The right way in the end, is the one that works best for you.

the adjustable angle block tool. I like that. Which is another option.

I have tried many ways to drill canted axles. This one was the easyiest way I could come up with that worked for me and the kids. I call it, simple, cheap and effective.

In regards to using a drill rod for the cant.

No matter what, I totally think the best tool out there for drilling non canted axle wholes is the pro body jig. I totally use this tool for a starter whole before I drill a full canted axle whole.

Trying to line the axle up on a angled surface to drill, not so easy in my book. Having a child do it, even harder to achieve a good true axle whole.

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Re: Alignment, Axle wholes. Drilling / Cant. (Pictures).

Post by DerbyDash »

sporty wrote:Canting is always faster then not, in the rears, A good margin faster. For the reasons mentioned above this post.

Canting, has the wheels migrate out to the axle head, but also reduces the wheel surface friction to the track allot more, then with the entire wheel surface touching the track surface, Just overall the way to go, if your rules allow it.

Atempting to cant the front wheels the same way and run a strait runner, very very hard to do. I think its far more easier and a safer bet to do the opposite cant on the rail rider axle and tune for drift and rail rider. Far faster.

I have never seen someone run a strait runner faster then a rail runner. I would be there might only be 1 or 2 people in the whole united states that might be able to do it.

Sporty
Thank you for the feedback. Not having tried some of these things before on a build leads us newer builders to think "what if I tried.....". I'm pretty sure I'm not one of the one of two people in the U.S. who could do it..... :D
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Re: Alignment, Axle wholes. Drilling / Cant. (Pictures).

Post by chromegsx »

I just got done chasing my tail last night for a few hours trying to drill holes. I have to echo LightingBoy and Topspin. THE WOOD BLOCK MUST HAVE PARALLEL SIDES AND BOTTOM MUST BE SQUARE TO SIDES. AND BOTTOM AND SIDES MUST BE FLAT or at least not have a belly in them that sticks out of the wood allowing it to wobble when alternately pressing on the edges while on a flat surface. This also assumes the top of your block (mostly the edges of it) never touch a fence or base plate of drill press.

In my case, I milled the sides of the block flat and parallel using my drill press. but didn't have a way to mill the bottom "square" to the sides. I moved forward thinking if I only reference the sides when setting the cant angle I should be good to go. Seems logical till you forget that VERY important detail and put the gauge pin between your fence and you unsquared bottom. Thinking back now I still don't think it would work without the squared bottom, but somehow I got it to work. I drilled my holes 1st time... threw some unpreped wheels and axles on and sent it down the tuning board. one wheel stayed close to block. hmmmm. send it down backwards. same thing. hmmmm. switch wheels and axles. same result. grrrrr. back to the shop... keeping in mind it could just be un-preped wheels causing this.) checking squareness of guage pins in holes (i.e. no visible toe in or out). looks good. set block on flat surface and looked at end. hmmm... that don't look right. one axle looked nearly level and one had what looked to be more can't than I intended. Back to the press to try again moving holes up 1/8" on same block... check square of pins of holes... good to go. set block on flat surface and look at cant.. Dag nab it!!! I got the exact same result. ok... pretty sure this bottom is screwing me over. we'll try something different..thought maybe the makeshift fence was messing it up. set the block on it's side with the bottom of the block up against a machinist block... AH HA! I have about 2-3° of air in there. My bottom is not square to the sides. Re-drill another 1/8" higher on the block with this new "knowledge" aka experience. checking square and cant I now have near perfect rear holes. One is shifted a few thousandths forward then the other. Now I have a block with near perfect axle holes in the middle of my block. which makes a nice wheel display but don't roll so good. Hopefully I can carefully make two cuts on the top and bottom and get the holes back down without having to start on yet another block from scratch. Didn't feel like verifying on tuning board... as I would have had to start my table saw which is loud and right under my son's bedrooms. Plus my body was telling me it was time for bed... finally.

Truth be told... this hole (<-- pun intended) experience is what tools from other vendors will help you avoid, but they also don't help you understand all of this by avoiding the experience. I can now appreciate some of the value that those tools provide. Looking back, sure I lost some sleep, but I think I've become wiser for it.

Sporty is correct though... all tools and processes have speed bumps to get through, but once you get through them, your off to the races. But if you also perform the checks with pins/drill blanks in holes you will know if you got it right with whatever tool/process you use.

Sorry for the book... Was venting a bit, but also thought it might help someone understand the challenge or help trouble shoot their own drilling processes.
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Re: Alignment, Axle wholes. Drilling / Cant. (Pictures).

Post by Topspin.D »

+1
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Re: Alignment, Axle wholes. Drilling / Cant. (Pictures).

Post by chromegsx »

chromegsx wrote:...I now have near perfect rear holes. One is shifted a few thousandths forward then the other. ....
I should note that from what I've seen of drilling tools available (sorry haven't used them yet), none help perfect this and they rely on a good eye and how square you marked your line from one side of the block to the other. And that marking still relies on how square your square is, how parallel your sides are, how sharp you pencil is, etc. But this shift in rear axle horizontal location should be negligible compared to equal cant angles and toe it angles.
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Re: Alignment, Axle wholes. Drilling / Cant. (Pictures).

Post by DerbyDash »

In looking at the instructions, while it says to attach the rod, I do not see what the diameter of the rod is....did I miss it?
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Re: Alignment, Axle wholes. Drilling / Cant. (Pictures).

Post by chromegsx »

DerbyDash wrote:In looking at the instructions, while it says to attach the rod, I do not see what the diameter of the rod is....did I miss it?
depends on what cant you want and which side of the block you use it on. See Stan's calculator page.
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