Axle drilling success rate?

[Vitamin K]

So, for me, drilling canted axles is something of an iterative process. It goes something like this:

- Mark holes
- Drill holes
- Insert pins into holes, check squareness
- Insert test wheels/axles, check for head migration during roll
- Add weight, try roll down inclined plane, check for straight travel

If any of the tests fails, then I fill with epoxy and a toothpick, sand flat and start over. I usually have to make a few attempts to get a drill that I'm satisfied with.

Now, I am using the 'fence and spacer' method of drilling cant, and I have considered getting a Block or Silver Bullet to try and improve my axle drilling accuracy. However, I seem to recall some builders of some repute on another forum reporting something of a 50% success ratio when drilling blocks, even when using 'The Block' or similar.

Is this about normal? Is having to do several drills to get a single good block just par for the course?

[sporty]

A starter whole using the pro body jig helped me allot.

I'm now about 75% to 80%. These days.
About one out of 4 or 5 blocks I have a issue.

But I have gotten on streaks where no issues for several drills.

[Speedster]

Excellent topic, Vitamin K.
I have always wondered why anyone would try to drill a perfect hole (I think impossible) and then insert an imperfect nail and imperfect wheel into that hole and then hope the rears do not try to steer the car one way or another. Does the top racer in the world perhaps put the slightest bend in the nail so he has an adjustment? It would seem to me a person could use slots, bend the nail, and get the car to run more straight than a person drilling a hole. If the hole, nail and wheel are not perfect, and you have no adjustment, you are at a disadvantage. The biggest disadvantage today is not having a track with timer at your disposal. Any adjustment is going to affect the speed of the car and you need to be able to make those adjustments.
"Axle drilling success rate". I think it's Zero. I have an open mind and try to understand but I truly don't see the advantage of drilling a hole in a soft piece of pine and then have no adjustment. Where am I wrong?

[Vitamin K]

Interesting points, Speedster.

It seems to me that the top league racers right now (I know this isn't a league racer board) seem to fall into the camp of "Use the Block/Bullet with a good drill press and a straight and rigid bit, test your alignment and go with it".

The benefit to doing this is that once you have your alignment to where you want it, it stays that way. Especially if you're racing by proxy and trusting your car to the fickleness of the postal system, you don't want to have to worry about whether or not your axles got misaligned en route. Of course, if you're using a bent axle for your DFW, you're going to have to hope that axle doesn't get out of whack, but I guess it's one axle to to worry about, vs three.

League racers also tend to use premium machined axles that come guaranteed straight and smooth, so that possibly eliminates one variable there.

Opinions aside, it does seem like the ideal setup would be one to where you could engage in a adjust/test iterative cycle that yielded excellent results in as little time as possible. However, you'd also want to be assured that once you'd made your adjustments, they would "stick"and not be subject to things like vibrations or shock.

I suppose you could use some superglue to 'lock in' your bent axle adjustments, but then you run into problems if the inspectors want you to pull a wheel, and if you lose an axle, you're in trouble because you can't just pop in a new straight one.

Excellent topic, Vitamin K.
I have always wondered why anyone would try to drill a perfect hole (I think impossible) and then insert an imperfect nail and imperfect wheel into that hole and then hope the rears do not try to steer the car one way or another. Does the top racer in the world perhaps put the slightest bend in the nail so he has an adjustment? It would seem to me a person could use slots, bend the nail, and get the car to run more straight than a person drilling a hole. If the hole, nail and wheel are not perfect, and you have no adjustment, you are at a disadvantage. The biggest disadvantage today is not having a track with timer at your disposal. Any adjustment is going to affect the speed of the car and you need to be able to make those adjustments.
"Axle drilling success rate". I think it's Zero. I have an open mind and try to understand but I truly don't see the advantage of drilling a hole in a soft piece of pine and then have no adjustment. Where am I wrong?

[birddog]

Our household usually builds about 8 cars per year (4 for the local pack/district races and 4 for the Mid America race). In 2013, all holes were drilled just once with acceptable results. In 2014, we had one car out of 8 that had an axle hole not drilled properly, and we didn't catch it until I saw it run terrible times on the test track. I use the Silver Bullet with a 20 year old floor standing Delta drill press to drill holes.

Birddog

[FatSebastian]

you run into problems if the inspectors want you to pull a wheel

Is the disassembling of cars practiced where you race?

[whodathunkit]

It seems to me that the top league racers right now (I know this isn't a league racer board) seem to fall into the camp of "Use the Block/Bullet with a good drill press and a straight and rigid bit, test your alignment and go with it".

Vitamin K,

If you have a drill press with a table that tilts..
What's to keep you from useing a 90-degree fence and tilt the table
to the angle of degress for drilling axle holes.

Like if you were drilling pocket holes useing the drill press..
you would also want to use a brad point drill bit to keep the bit from walking around.
Think of cutting and point angles on the bit it self.

[Vitamin K]

I've never had it happen, no, but if there were question about wheels, couldn't they theoretically want to pull one for examination/weighing?

you run into problems if the inspectors want you to pull a wheel

Is the disassembling of cars practiced where you race?

[Vitamin K]

That's interesting, Whoda. I've actually never seen anybody suggest angling the table for drilling before. I guess the issue is that, if the table is angled, you'd need to have the block at a perfect right angle to the table in order to get the desired cant. I guess that is doable, though. Does anybody use this method?

It seems to me that the top league racers right now (I know this isn't a league racer board) seem to fall into the camp of "Use the Block/Bullet with a good drill press and a straight and rigid bit, test your alignment and go with it".

Vitamin K,

If you have a drill press with a table that tilts..
What's to keep you from useing a 90-degree fence and tilt the table
to the angle of degress for drilling axle holes.

Like if you were drilling pocket holes useing the drill press..
you would also want to use a brad point drill bit to keep the bit from walking around.
Think of cutting and point angles on the bit it self.

[ngyoung]

It would be a lot harder to adjust the table then to use a block or even a shim under the wood. With the machined block/bullet you don't necessarily need a squared table for your press as long as the fence is locked down to drill both rear holes. Any offset will be mirrored when the block is flipped.

Before I start drilling I usually pull the press down on my mark when it is turned off and once I am on the mark I tap down a few times to leave a divot. Even before I got a carbide bit I never felt like I was putting any pressure to make the bit wander.

I bought a white pine board from a lumber yard that supplies a lot of the cabinet makers in town and cut about 14 blocks out of it to work with. Then I weighed each piece and practiced a few times on the heaviest ones before I did the lightest ones to use for my actual cars.

[whodathunkit]

That's interesting, Whoda. I've actually never seen anybody suggest angling the table for drilling before. I guess the issue is that, if the table is angled, you'd need to have the block at a perfect right angle to the table in order to get the desired cant. I guess that is doable, though. Does anybody use this method?

Ok, so maybe it cant be done useing a small home type drill press..
As you would have to flip the car block & the car block itself would hit the column for the next side.
Maybe on a larger drill press this suggestion and method could be done.

Ok, so maybe you can build an angle table that sets on the drill press table.
See tip's 8 & 11 to the link for more on what I'm suggesting for ideas.
http://www.americanwoodworker.com/blogs ... -tips.aspx

[gpraceman]

Ok, so maybe you can build an angle table that sets on the drill press table.
See tip's 8 & 11 to the link for more on what I'm suggesting for ideas.
http://www.americanwoodworker.com/blogs ... -tips.aspx

I like the idea of an angled ramp. I could see even building one that has an adjustable angle. Like this one, http://www.woodmagazine.com/woodworking ... angle-jig/ Something like this could be built for not a lot of cash.

[whodathunkit]

gpraceman and fellow Derby Talkers,

I'm not trying to promote any vendor tools. If anything, I'm trying to promote better axle hole drilling techniques. To do this I'd like to show the reason behind why I think a certain tool is the preferred tool of league racers.

With the type of set up such as the set up shown with the angled (drill press) ramp, for drilling canted axle holes, three sides of the car block would have to be square. Same for the method of using a rod under the block.



If the bottom side of the block shown with the rod is not perfectly square to the other side your angles on your drilled axle holes could be off a litle bit from one side of the car to the other.

Okay....let's look at this certain tool:



With the image I'm sharing, only one side of the block needs to be square and flat and true to the tool. I hope that with what I'm sharing now, that it answers Vitamin K's questions.

[gpraceman]

I'm not trying to promote any vendor tools. If anything, I'm trying to promote better axle hold drilling techniques. To do this I'd like to show the reason behind why I think a certain tool is the preferred tool of league racers.

I understand. I just think that we can also explore different ways to end with the same or closely similar results, especially if they can be less expensive for those on a tighter budget. I'd be interested in building an angled table. I'd use that in conjunction with something that the wood block can be clamped to to get past the issue of unparallel sides of the wood block. I do have some 1-2-3 Blocks handy, which are pretty inexpensive and provide sides that are precisely machined to be parallel.

[Speedster]

Axle drilling success? I'm very curious. Let's assume you must use the stock wheelbase. Let's also assume you may use Max-V's 4091 wheels which includes the 4094 axles. Can a car be built ( 3 wheel rail rider) using axle holes first and then slots cut for the rears and using bent axles? What would be the difference in speed? Has anyone attempted this? I am not skilled enough. Perhaps Maximum Velocity would try it.
One other question. Has anyone who has drilled their holes for a scout race been beaten by someone using slots?