Revisiting bent rear axles

[FatSebastian]

I wanna say he was using it with a steel or titanium axle. I commented on the video and asked how it worked on a typical nickel(?) BSA axle

To be clearer, BSA axles are made from steel wire and are nickel-plated; they are not made of nickel.

[ngyoung]

I thought BSA axles were made of zinc.

Yes the DW bender will not bend a steel axle well unless you make a relief groove. Otherwise the bend will show up where you don't want it, especially if you have a groove where the wheel rides.

[Vitamin K]

I wanna say he was using it with a steel or titanium axle. I commented on the video and asked how it worked on a typical nickel(?) BSA axle

To be clearer, BSA axles are made from steel wire and are nickel-plated; they are not made of nickel.

Ah, thanks for the clarification.

I thought they were made of zinc

Either way, I was wrong.

Here's a link to the video in question. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdkoLgirUuM Glad to know that the results from the tester are not universal.

[FatSebastian]

I thought BSA axles were made of zinc.

You are right about the use of zinc; I mistyped. I meant to type they "are zinc-plated; they are not made of nickel." Of course they are not made of zinc either; they are steel and plated with zinc so as not to rust.

(Some aftermarket axles really are nickel-plated though. MaxV provides a handy chart of some axle types that he sells, for example.)

[sporty]

I'd consider the source for that video.


That tool works just fine. Using stock BSA axles. I do notice I do the bend differently.

Sometimes vendors do not like one another, or mfg.

Sporty

[Vitamin K]

I'd consider the source for that video.

Yeah, absolutely.

That tool works just fine. Using stock BSA axles. I do notice I do the bend differently.

Sometimes vendors do not like one another, or mfg.

Yeah, there's a lot more I wanna say about this, but I'm gonna stop short of calling people out by name.

Let me just offer this anecdote:

Back when I had less children and more time, I used to participate in Judo at a local, not-for-profit club. We had some good senseis there, who volunteered their time, expertise and energy into teaching whoever wanted to learn. It was good times, even if sometimes a little bit disorganized. But it was a labor of love, and everybody involved was doing it out of a sense of community and good will.

Anyhow, I had a coworker who took Taekwondo at a local for-profit dojang, and he told me, one day, that the owner had been ranting about our non-profit Judo club. I don't think I'd ever seen Master [name redacted] visit our Judo club, so I'm not certain where was getting ammunition for the shade he was throwing.

But I think that's just something that happens when you turn a hobby into a business. You lose a certain level of objectivity when the welfare of you and your family's income is on the line. Master [name redacted] probably saw our non-profit club as a potential source of lost students for his business, which was his livelihood. As such, he was inclined to view it unfavorably.

So bringing it back to the topic of the thread, the folks who sell products like The Silver Bullet or the Block have a vested interest in more people wanting to drill canted holes for straight axles, as opposed to using bended axles. If it could be shown that bent axles were just as viable a solution, would they look at such information with unbiased eyes? I would hope so, but some things make me pessimistic.

[sporty]

I have started a new topic. See what I have posted and lets go from there on that. So Vitamin K. Can stay on track.

http://www.derbytalk.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7768

Sporty

[Speedster]

Lets consider a pretend set up. A hole is drilled with 2 1/2 degrees of Negative cant. Scout nail installed. That's it. You're done. A scout nail is bent 2 1/2 degrees Negative cant and installed in a slot. How does the wheel know whether it is riding on a straight nail or a bent nail? Would like to hear from Physics Majors at this point. Each car is tested for rears running parallel to the car. The car with the straight nails have no adjustment. The car with the bent nails can be played with if you have a track and timer. My good friend Sporty made me chuckle. Yep, he's fast. After tuning a car on the tuning board my cars never end up the exact same once I put it on the track. Do league racers actually "bend" their axles so they have an adjustment?

[LightninBoy]

Do league racers actually "bend" their axles so they have an adjustment?

Only the DFW.

[Vitamin K]

Lets consider a pretend set up. A hole is drilled with 2 1/2 degrees of Negative cant. Scout nail installed. That's it. You're done. A scout nail is bent 2 1/2 degrees Negative cant and installed in a slot. How does the wheel know whether it is riding on a straight nail or a bent nail? Would like to hear from Physics Majors at this point. Each car is tested for rears running parallel to the car. The car with the straight nails have no adjustment. The car with the bent nails can be played with if you have a track and timer. My good friend Sporty made me chuckle. Yep, he's fast. After tuning a car on the tuning board my cars never end up the exact same once I put it on the track. Do league racers actually "bend" their axles so they have an adjustment?

I have wondered this myself. I guess my question would boil down to, is there a difference in the way the wheel hub rides on the axle, between bent and straight axles? If so, this might be a possible point of examination in determining the superiority of the straight axles. However, as far as I can tell, there isn't a difference.

Tangential to the question about league racers bending their axles for adjustment, I was thinking about the merits of a hybrid approach. That is, drilling for the initial degree of canting, and then applying a slight bend in order to provide the final tuning portion. In fact, this is how I've done the DFW on our cars this year, because I had a tricky time setting the appropriate drift last time. My logic is that is the bend is accommodating a smaller range of degrees, then it is less sensitive and easier to adjust. I'll report back on that when tuning time comes, but it seems like it might either yield the best of both worlds, or the worst of.

[sporty]

For years, I have drilled cant. On the DFW. Then use a lesser bent axle.

I found the bend without doing this, could indeed effect the hub area and cause problems.

And i also found it easier to tune with this method.

[Vitamin K]

For years, I have drilled cant. On the DFW. Then use a lesser bent axle.

I found the bend without doing this, could indeed effect the hub area and cause problems.

Any elaborations on this? If you're noticing adverse effects from hub friction on bent axles, maybe this is one possible source of the 'straight axles are faster' claim? Does it apply only to positively cambered wheels (e.g., the DFW), or would you say it would affect negatively cambered wheels as well?

[sporty]

When you are doing allot of cant. And tuning on the DFW. The bend can be so great, people were cutting / reducing the axle where the axle, hub area was. Due to such a bend.

[Speedster]

Negative cant will force the wheel to ride against the nail head. Assuming the scout pulls the rear wheels to the nail head when staging his car, the rear wheels should be in the same position whether the nail is bent or straight. I'm going to guess the super experts are able to drill a perfect hole and with the fancy stainless steel axles are able to get the rears to be parallel with no further adjustment. I'm not that good and am required to use scout axles. It's interesting to play with bent axles and watch the times change when running them down the track. Maximum Velocity is always doing complicated tests. Maybe he'll try this situation.

[Vitamin K]

Negative cant will force the wheel to ride against the nail head. Assuming the scout pulls the rear wheels to the nail head when staging his car, the rear wheels should be in the same position whether the nail is bent or straight. I'm going to guess the super experts are able to drill a perfect hole and with the fancy stainless steel axles are able to get the rears to be parallel with no further adjustment. I'm not that good and am required to use scout axles. It's interesting to play with bent axles and watch the times change when running them down the track. Maximum Velocity is always doing complicated tests. Maybe he'll try this situation.

I would love to see MaxV do some tests on this. He should set up a "test suggestion form" or something, so there's some place to submit all these wild ideas.