Aluminum Tracks

[Mike Parrish]

I finally made up my mind to purchase an aluminum pwd track, and along comes Piantedosi offering an aluminum track

Has anyone seen this track yet?

[gpraceman]

I finally made up my mind to purchase an aluminum pwd track, and along comes Piantedosi offering an aluminum track

Has anyone seen this track yet?

Surprises never end. It would be nice if they showed pictures of their full setup. All they show is a picture of the track plate. It would be hard to buy something without seeing their stopping section, start gate and the support structure.

[Mike Parrish]

I have exchanged several e-mails with Gary Piantedosi. I also asked if there were more pics and/or set-up instructions to view.

His response was there will be more pics posted on the web site shortly.

[Da Graphite Kid]

Mike,
I'm also looking to buy an aluminium pwd track and had set my sites on a 3 lane 49 foot BestTrack until your post. I'm not commited to one track or the other at this time but we did receive a short sample piece of BestTrack and like the way it connects. Looked over the Piantedosi site and just don't find answers for the questions I have - like "How do the track sections connect?" I do like the more gradual curve section but am not sure how this will work under race conditions (will the track move as the pwd cars run through this section?, How is the track supported?). Did not see a big difference in price either. I guess I'll have to wait for more pics and information as I work O.T. and save my money for one track or the other...

Let us all know when new information hits the Piantedosi site.


Da Graphite Kid

[Mike Parrish]

I do like the more gradual curve section but am not sure how this will work under race conditions (will the track move as the pwd cars run through this section?, How is the track supported?).Da Graphite Kid

Below is part of the e-mail that I received from Gary:

"The tracks will come complete with support legs, starting gates,
braking section, etc. They are ready to race out of the box except
for the weights that put the curve into the track. We recommend
using two 10 lb weightlifting plates. They will fit on a rack in-
corporated in our design. If you don't have these in your basement
they can be purchased at Sears or Walmart for $6/pr. We could
not ship them for that amount.

We will post more pictures shortly depicting the assembly and
set-up."

I will have to wait to see the assembly pics & instructions also before making my final decision.

I will post again when I find out more. Be sure to let me know if you learn any more.

[gpraceman]

Sounds like their support structure is similar to their wooden track, with the weights to hold the shape of the curve. I'm a little suprised that the aluminum plating will flex enough to put enough curve in it. BestTrack physically bends the curve into the aluminum.

I'm also curious about their stopping section. With a fast track, you really need a good stopping section.

I also hope their start gate design is not the same as with their wooden track. As I posted in another thread, their current design lead to too much variability in the speed of dropping the starting pins.

We'll just have to wait and see...

[Darin McGrew]

I also hope their start gate design is not the same as with their wooden track. As I posted in another thread, their current design lead to too much variability in the speed of dropping the starting pins.

I was surprised the first time I saw printed plans for building a derby track. Most of the plans I've seen (including the ones I adapted for the web on my web site) design the starting gate so that a spring holds it closed and the starter opens the gate manually. All the actual tracks I've seen switch this around: The spring pulls the gate open, and the gate is held closed by a latch of some kind. Opening the latch gives a very uniform start as the spring opens the gate quickly.

[gpraceman]

The spring pulls the gate open, and the gate is held closed by a latch of some kind. Opening the latch gives a very uniform start as the spring opens the gate quickly.

I believe that that is the better design. This reduces the variation caused by the person starting the race, making the race more fair. A lot of variation in the start may end up changing the overall standings, which would not be fair to the racers.

[Da Graphite Kid]

Mike,
I've seen some of the new pictures and information on the Piantedosi site. As far as I can tell they are using the same start gate and the same stopping section at the other end
I was hoping for a spring loaded start gate as stated above along with a better stop section. I guess I could fashion a better starting gate but am at a loss for replacing/changing the stop section - short of buying more track (which means more money!). I really don't want to do this after spending what I will for the track itself.

I also saw on the BestTrack site that they now form the curved section on a custom machine to ensure that all are equal. The Piantedosi site states that their "easement" curve: "is superior to the constant radius curve found on other tracks". Does anyone know if this is better or not or if it really makes that much of a difference?

At this point I am torn between choosing one track over the other. We run on a Piantedosi wooden track at District and this will likely not change for years to come - so I am draw towards the Piantedosi aluminum track as it has the same curvature. However, I like what I've heard about the BestTrack starting gate and stopping section...

Hope you are having a better time making up your mind than I am Mike!


Da Graphite Kid

[Stan Pope]

I was hoping for a spring loaded start gate as stated above along with a better stop section.

It is almost as though Piantedosi folks were reading these posts. From the "specs" section of http://www.pinewoodderbytrack.com/specs.html:

"Starting Gate
"The cars start at rest against stainless steel pins protruding through slots in the track. These pins are affixed to a spring loaded aluminum hinge. Tripping a small catch quickly rotates the pins beneath the track and releases the cars.

"Car Brakes
"The cars are prevented from running off the end of the track by means of a specially designed braking section. This unit is designed and race-proven to stop the cars quickly while protecting them from damage. The cars slide up a raised rubber grid and are cushioned against a foam barrier."

I do have a concern about the aluminum tracks regarding speed. Most who go for an aluminum track decide that the 32' length is "too fast" so they add flat sections to make it 40' to 56' long.

The problem is that lengthening the track changes how the track and car interact. Cars that do well on a 48' aluminum track do not perform as well on a 32' wood track, and vice versa.

It becomes a real problem if local races are used to qualify cars to a district or regional race.

Now, would track speed be a problem with the Piantedosi tracks? Maybe not as much. Note that the profiles are different. The slope of the "P" track eases gradually, which increases the time to reach the flat. Speeds when the cars reach the flat should be almost as great, but there must be some reduction due to friction losses. So, maybe qualifying on a 32' wooden Piantedosi track for regionals on a 32' aluminum Piantedose track would not carry a handicap.

On the flexing aluminum, the alloy sounds very similar to what I used to use (6016-T6) to build rotatable radio antennas ... strong but flexible.

I think that the Piantedosi guys have done their homework.

[Da Graphite Kid]

Stan,

I thought the starting gate and stop sections were the same design as they used on their wooden tracks. If this has not changed since the spring of 2001 (when the Pack that runs the District race bought their track), than this is the same hand operated starting gate and punishing stopping section. Also, I went back and read the review of the wooden Piantedosi track by gpraceman and it sounds like they had the same start gate and stop section on the track that his Pack "recently" bought (posted July 2003).

I sent an e-mail to Gary at pinewooderbytrack.com and asked if these have changed or not.


Da Graphite Kid

[Stan Pope]

I thought the starting gate and stop sections were the same design as they used on their wooden tracks.

The statements in their website seemed very clear to me. I've not seen a recently purchased "P" track, but none I've seen had either the latched/spring loaded starting gate or the rubber covered stop strips that the promo describes.

From this I must conclude that the folks at "P" have, indeed, been listening and have, in fact, refined the design.

If the email response from Gary says otherwise, then they need to explain the statement on the website!

[Da Graphite Kid]

Gary's e-mail reply to my questions:

"The starting gate has been redesigned. It still has 1/4" pins (now stainless steel) coming up through slots in the track. It swings down to release the cars down the track. We have added a spring-loaded mechansim so the gate will open automatically with the flip of a lever therefore eliminating any operator interference.

We have also modified the braking section. It is still the same concept of a rubber grid and a foam barrier. We dramatically improved the grid material so it tends to really arrest the cars now. For the foam barrier we added a tensioning plate across the top. As you tighten the bolts it compresses the foam so it bellies out towards the cars and prevents the impact with the bolts themselves."

It does indeed sound like they have been listening to at least some of the suggestions from all the pineheads! Although I still like the BestTrack stop section better and like the idea that the pwd cars will be going faster, I think that I will end up going with the Piantedosi aluminum track. The main reason being that the track geometry - curved section - matches that of the track that our 'Cubs' will be racing on at District.

Now to convince my accountant. Sweetheart, honey, sweety...


Da Graphite Kid

[gpraceman]

It does indeed sound like they have been listening to at least some of the suggestions from all the pineheads!

Maybe so, though I think they probably had these design changes in the works before this board got started. Regardless, it is a welcome change and probably in response to feedback from their customers. I haven't picked through their site, but I hope this means that the start gate for the wood tracks has also been redesigned. Our pack bought our new wood track last March and it has the old start gate design.

The stop section, though, doesn't really sould like it has been improved much. Compressing the foam may serve to protect the cars better from hitting the mounting bolts, but it will probably serve to bounce the cars more off of the foam, increasing the chances of them jumping their lanes. If that happens, then the cars can hit other cars (or be hit) or jump off the track altoghter (a big problem if your track is raised on tables).

Gary - If you are reading these posts. Please put some more photos on your site! It would be good to see photos of the start gate, stop section, how the individual lanes are connected together, and the joints of the new aluminum track.

[Stan Pope]

Although I still like the BestTrack stop section better and like the idea that the pwd cars will be going faster, I think that I will end up going with the Piantedosi aluminum track. The main reason being that the track geometry - curved section - matches that of the track that our 'Cubs' will be racing on at District.

The most important considerations are (1) whether the two tracks filter the same cars to the top and (2) whether the track yields consistent results, race after race.

If you repeated a heat several times with the same cars in the same lanes, each carefully staged each time, you rightfully expect almost identical results and separations. I observed 1/8" maximum variance in separations on the wooden Piantedosi track. I'd like to think the aluminum track would do as well. But, if you can, make the observations and post the results, please!

I'd also like to think that a car's elapsed times (ET) would be consistent under similar circulstances. We weren't able to measure ET's. If you can make those observations and post the results, please do.

I recall reading that one of the reasons for extending the aluminum track is that the track did not sufficiently differentiate the cars ... they were finishing too close together and giving inconsistent results. A likely cause is that the higher speeds amplified the effects of random influences. If true, then it argues against selecting a faster track.

Now to convince my accountant. Sweetheart, honey, sweety...

That sounds like a very familiar scenario!