An issue of ethics
- Turbo_Python
- Journeyman
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- Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:00 pm
- Location: Loudoun, Va
An issue of ethics
My son and I decide to jump into this with both feet. No prob, I want to build a 2 lane test track in my basement. However, I realize most kids will never have a PWD tack their basement much less built to specs same as our pack's track. So we like PWD, so we build cars months in advance, and test them 9 ways to Sunday. Is it considered unethical to have an edge like a test track? Or are we just taking it seriously?
- PWD_addict
- Master Pine Head
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- Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:35 am
- Location: Middle River, Maryland
Re: An issue of ethics
You are not doing anything that any other kid/parent could do. If you were the keeper of the track, and set it up to practice on without anyone else having the chance to do so . . . . well, that's another thing.
Are you certain that other families don't have a test track already?
The rumor began swirling this year that my son and I have a test track. It's absolutely not true but I'm considering one . . .
Are you certain that other families don't have a test track already?
The rumor began swirling this year that my son and I have a test track. It's absolutely not true but I'm considering one . . .
- Turbo_Python
- Journeyman
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- Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:00 pm
- Location: Loudoun, Va
Re: An issue of ethics
I have thought about the possibilities. I have considered that if anyone else wants to win, then they need to work as hard as we do. Still I'd like to have some opinions on it before I buy materials and go to town. Its not like we are going to build a car and test it all year for one race, but to build and prove design seems fair to me. The materials and kits are available all year to everyone, so to me it isn't as if I've gone and done something they couldn't or had knowledge of.
Re: An issue of ethics
I have no idea as to how it would be unethical for you to build a test track and use it. If you build (or even bought one) it, then you are doing nothing wrong. If it were the packs track and you used it that way, then that wouldn't be right in my opinion. It would be a pack asset that you are making personal use of.
You stated making you own, so it's yours. You can do with it as you please.
Make sure to enjoy the time spent with your son and to have fun.
You stated making you own, so it's yours. You can do with it as you please.
Make sure to enjoy the time spent with your son and to have fun.
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- Apprentice
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:43 pm
- Location: Germantown Hills, Illinois
Re: An issue of ethics
Having a test track is not unethical at all. Now when you say you build cars months in advance that could be considered unethical. In our pack you can not start building any part of your car PRIOR to when the kits are handed out. That's not to say you can't build a prototype to perfect a design, but you still need to build another car to race in your pack AFTER the kits are handed out. FWIW I have a track, timer and software on the way!Turbo_Python wrote:...So we like PWD, so we build cars months in advance, and test them 9 ways to Sunday. Is it considered unethical to have an edge like a test track? Or are we just taking it seriously?
- Turbo_Python
- Journeyman
- Posts: 34
- Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:00 pm
- Location: Loudoun, Va
Re: An issue of ethics
Negative- we would build for testing only, and use the issued car for racing. I am against cheating, which is why I created this thread. I wanted to test the water and get a feel for my methods from others.RocketRod wrote:Having a test track is not unethical at all. Now when you say you build cars months in advance that could be considered unethical. In our pack you can not start building any part of your car PRIOR to when the kits are handed out. That's not to say you can't build a prototype to perfect a design, but you still need to build another car to race in your pack AFTER the kits are handed out. FWIW I have a track, timer and software on the way!Turbo_Python wrote:...So we like PWD, so we build cars months in advance, and test them 9 ways to Sunday. Is it considered unethical to have an edge like a test track? Or are we just taking it seriously?
- Go Bubba Go
- Pine Head Legend
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- Location: Northern, Illinois
Re: An issue of ethics
I'd say you're taking it seriously.Turbo_Python wrote:My son and I decide to jump into this with both feet. No prob, I want to build a 2 lane test track in my basement. However, I realize most kids will never have a PWD tack their basement much less built to specs same as our pack's track. So we like PWD, so we build cars months in advance, and test them 9 ways to Sunday. Is it considered unethical to have an edge like a test track? Or are we just taking it seriously?
Ever notice how many of the really good basketball players have their own hoop in their own driveway?
Or how many good football players have folks who send them to "Football Camp" and spend countless hours watching games, talking strategy, etc. with them?
Or good swimmers that have a pool in their own backyard?
Bubba
"Who's Grandpa's neighbor?"... Phil Davis, Down and Derby
Re: An issue of ethics
There is people I know who have tracks, even bought them from the troop, when they had a auction to sell old tracks and gain money for the pack.
Some people enjoy pinewood derby more than others, nothing wrong with having a track or more tools than the next guy, or less or not having a track.
Does not matter, as long as the rules are followed bye, then nothing wrong with having a track.
It was not to long ago, that The Boy scouts announced there new motto for scouts.
Race into scouts, had the blue box with the pinewood derby kit, they gave some of them out and now you can find them on e-bay.
Some even had nascar's Jeff Gordon on the box.
Boy scouts of america realize how big pinewood derby is, and how much money it bring them. Kits, parts, accessories.
If it helps them thrive and grow the Cub scouts in the process. That a plus. Most packs only have 1 race a year and many scouts look forward to that day.
Sporty
Some people enjoy pinewood derby more than others, nothing wrong with having a track or more tools than the next guy, or less or not having a track.
Does not matter, as long as the rules are followed bye, then nothing wrong with having a track.
It was not to long ago, that The Boy scouts announced there new motto for scouts.
Race into scouts, had the blue box with the pinewood derby kit, they gave some of them out and now you can find them on e-bay.
Some even had nascar's Jeff Gordon on the box.
Boy scouts of america realize how big pinewood derby is, and how much money it bring them. Kits, parts, accessories.
If it helps them thrive and grow the Cub scouts in the process. That a plus. Most packs only have 1 race a year and many scouts look forward to that day.
Sporty
Re: An issue of ethics
Turbo_Python,
My oldest son and I went through some of the same chastations eight years ago, and I didn't even have a track! They accused us of everything because a Tiger beat the reining champ. I tried to tell them that we researched some building resources and just worked hard. To finally quiten the hostiles, I asked the Cubmaster if next year I could give a one night workshop and freely go over the basic construction tips that we had read about and learned. I gathered all supplies at my own expense, and we had the workshop. My son was fortunate enough to win that year as well, but there was no critics. They finally realized we followed the rules and worked hard. Remember you only get out what you put into something. Consider sharing some of your info, and prove there is nothing you're hidding.
My oldest son and I went through some of the same chastations eight years ago, and I didn't even have a track! They accused us of everything because a Tiger beat the reining champ. I tried to tell them that we researched some building resources and just worked hard. To finally quiten the hostiles, I asked the Cubmaster if next year I could give a one night workshop and freely go over the basic construction tips that we had read about and learned. I gathered all supplies at my own expense, and we had the workshop. My son was fortunate enough to win that year as well, but there was no critics. They finally realized we followed the rules and worked hard. Remember you only get out what you put into something. Consider sharing some of your info, and prove there is nothing you're hidding.
Re: An issue of ethics
I wanted to chime in a bit more.
When we were loosing and at the bottom, we were gracious and in time we learned how to become compititive.
There is always someone faster or individuals that have a different outlook at pinewood derby.
For some it'sd about racing, some it's for fun. Every pack and families look at it differently.
The past couple of years we have done very well. In doing so, other seem to gripe a little more, be upset. I have heard the secret wispers ringing in my ears at times.
I also began offering and helping put on workshops. While this is not a 100% solution. It does present your knowledge and what you do to others.
It provides them with the chance to learn and see what you do to the car.
Some really nice and great people have shared with us, and we learned and applied that learning into the car.
I have also tried to pay it forward in sharing and giving out free info and tips to helps others.
There is allot of great people out there and here on this forum.
I would like to thank especially the following people for all that they have shared and helped with.
Graceman
Stan
gobubba go
craig
derby doc
max -v
teeman
racer x
warpspeed
And countless others.
There kindness and sharing and giving to the sport of pinewood derby is a real value to all of us.
Sporty
When we were loosing and at the bottom, we were gracious and in time we learned how to become compititive.
There is always someone faster or individuals that have a different outlook at pinewood derby.
For some it'sd about racing, some it's for fun. Every pack and families look at it differently.
The past couple of years we have done very well. In doing so, other seem to gripe a little more, be upset. I have heard the secret wispers ringing in my ears at times.
I also began offering and helping put on workshops. While this is not a 100% solution. It does present your knowledge and what you do to others.
It provides them with the chance to learn and see what you do to the car.
Some really nice and great people have shared with us, and we learned and applied that learning into the car.
I have also tried to pay it forward in sharing and giving out free info and tips to helps others.
There is allot of great people out there and here on this forum.
I would like to thank especially the following people for all that they have shared and helped with.
Graceman
Stan
gobubba go
craig
derby doc
max -v
teeman
racer x
warpspeed
And countless others.
There kindness and sharing and giving to the sport of pinewood derby is a real value to all of us.
Sporty
- ohiofitter
- Master Pine Head
- Posts: 693
- Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 10:30 am
- Location: Uniontown,Ohio
Re: An issue of ethics
I agree with sporty..I think it's how much your willing to share with other competitors.I always tell them about Derby Talk.........And with us and I'm sure its with others out there when we find something new that seems to be helping us win we share.If we find something that hurts our performance on the track we don't share this info because we wouldn't want to win with a unfair advantage............Plus I think most dads would like to have a track home made or not just to test with ....but most dads just don't go that far.
Re: An issue of ethics
We built a homemade test track and had fun doing it.
We offered it freely for use, and shared the design.
We only had one dad/son visit and test on it from dozens of folks who were invited.
My opinion:
You aren't doing a thing wrong to have your own track.
You are going the extra mile to share it.
If it consumes more than 2 rooms of your house as ours did, watch out for spousal repercussions
-T
We offered it freely for use, and shared the design.
We only had one dad/son visit and test on it from dozens of folks who were invited.
My opinion:
You aren't doing a thing wrong to have your own track.
You are going the extra mile to share it.
If it consumes more than 2 rooms of your house as ours did, watch out for spousal repercussions
-T
"I dunno..." - Uncle Eddie, Christmas Vacation
Re: An issue of ethics
We have run into the same issue in our pack. Pack champions two years running. I own my own track with timer. Others jump right to that being the reason for our speed, not car design, weight placement, wheel/axle prep, alignment, etc.
I opened my garage two saturdays this year for anybody in my pack to use. First day, no one showed up (bummer, cause it was a beautiful day and I could have been skiing), second day, 3 people from pack showed up, but only wanted to cut out the bodies, 1 father/son who wanted to learn the tricks and a friend and his son from another pack. Showed them the tools, how to use them and let the father/son teams have at it and helped when they asked. The track is used at other packs races, and I have it open to people to come by and take some tests runs, only two people, the two above, came to run their cars.
The cub scout motto is "Do Your Best". How do we teach our sons that, when we build the two days before the race, do nothing to the wheels/axles, have both postive and negative wheel camber, alignment that bounces the car back and forth, wheel gaps you can drive a truck through and so on. I prefer to teach my soon to do his best by research what makes the car go fast, developing the patience to work on each step completely and in order, and learn what delayed gratification is all about.
I know a guy that for his sons, has put in his backyard and batting cage with start of the art pictching machine and a full size NBA backboard with brakeaway rim. The kids are awesome athletes, is that an ethics issue or utilizing your resources. Micheal Phelps did not become one of the worlds greatest athletes by showing up the day of the race and getting wet for the first time that year.
We are rewarded by what we put into it.
I opened my garage two saturdays this year for anybody in my pack to use. First day, no one showed up (bummer, cause it was a beautiful day and I could have been skiing), second day, 3 people from pack showed up, but only wanted to cut out the bodies, 1 father/son who wanted to learn the tricks and a friend and his son from another pack. Showed them the tools, how to use them and let the father/son teams have at it and helped when they asked. The track is used at other packs races, and I have it open to people to come by and take some tests runs, only two people, the two above, came to run their cars.
The cub scout motto is "Do Your Best". How do we teach our sons that, when we build the two days before the race, do nothing to the wheels/axles, have both postive and negative wheel camber, alignment that bounces the car back and forth, wheel gaps you can drive a truck through and so on. I prefer to teach my soon to do his best by research what makes the car go fast, developing the patience to work on each step completely and in order, and learn what delayed gratification is all about.
I know a guy that for his sons, has put in his backyard and batting cage with start of the art pictching machine and a full size NBA backboard with brakeaway rim. The kids are awesome athletes, is that an ethics issue or utilizing your resources. Micheal Phelps did not become one of the worlds greatest athletes by showing up the day of the race and getting wet for the first time that year.
We are rewarded by what we put into it.
Re: An issue of ethics
Aptly stated idpwdnut.
I totally agree that having ones own test track is not violating any ethical issues in this sport.
I would have loved to have a test track over the 7 years of PWD racing but space prohibited it. I only use an alignment board in the garage when testing the car's alignment. And I offer it for use by the cubs the weekend prior to our derby.
I totally agree that having ones own test track is not violating any ethical issues in this sport.
I would have loved to have a test track over the 7 years of PWD racing but space prohibited it. I only use an alignment board in the garage when testing the car's alignment. And I offer it for use by the cubs the weekend prior to our derby.
Re: An issue of ethics
I also agree with what everyone is stating here. Having a test track is not unethical. Also keep in mind that cars run differently on different tracks. I take my three lane, 32 ft. wooden test track with me to our workshops each year. Our official track is a six lane, 40ft. aluminum Best Track. When some of the parents see their son's car lose by an inch or so to my son's car on my wooden test track, I tell them that the official track is 8 feet longer, the question is was my son's car slowing down or was it your son's? With 8 more feet to go, and a change from wood to aluminum, there's enough room that no one will be able to determine the final outcome in advance.
Having the test track simply gives you a better chance at perfecting the car so that it performs the best it can on the official track. It will never guarantee you a first place win.
-Nitro Dan
Having the test track simply gives you a better chance at perfecting the car so that it performs the best it can on the official track. It will never guarantee you a first place win.
-Nitro Dan
Take good and make it great. Take fast and make it faster. Performance drives success!