Bracket Generator

Discussions on race preparation, race management, sound effects, and other race related software. This is only for software provided by our sponsor, GrandPrix Software Central.
Post Reply
hwsjr
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 203
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:04 am
Location: North Carolina

Bracket Generator

Post by hwsjr »

My Pack has almost doubled in size since last year. We do a double elimination event because that's what our district uses as well. Does anyone know of a good and cheap bracket generator for up to 80 boys for double elimination? I see free brackets on the internet up to 36 boys, but none beyond that for free.
User avatar
sporty
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 3344
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:00 am
Location: rockfalls, Illinois

Re: Bracket Generator

Post by sporty »

I do not know of any free ones off hand bigger than 32 brackets.

but for around $20 there is this -

http://www.brhsolutions.com/products/tcm.htm

you might also search for double elim charts on the internet. I thought volley and a few other sports, might have some free bracket charts.

It's been a few years since I have looked.

Sporty
User avatar
Stan Pope
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 6856
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 7:01 pm
Location: Morton, Illinois
Contact:

Re: Bracket Generator

Post by Stan Pope »

hwsjr wrote:My Pack has almost doubled in size since last year. We do a double elimination event because that's what our district uses as well. Does anyone know of a good and cheap bracket generator for up to 80 boys for double elimination? I see free brackets on the internet up to 36 boys, but none beyond that for free.
While you don't have to run your unit derby the way it is run at district, there are some "learning advantages" to doing so, at least for the first timers.

A DE chart such as is shown at http://www.stanpope.net/dechart.html can be extended to 32, 64, or 128 cars. with 80 racers, you would have a lot of byes in the first two rounds. For those who believe in "solo graphite shakeout runs" when the racer has a bye (no opponent), that is a lot of time spent with little gain. The chart wa constructed using "borders" function in a spreadsheet. If you want to extend the DE and don't know how, give me a shout via email, not PM.

However, with all those byes and the fact that 20 of those boys leave after two contested runs without winning a heat against another racer, there are some really disappointed scouts ... 1/4 of 'em race two times and then they are done. And it will take about 160 contested heats plus about 48 solo graphite shakeout runs to finish the racing. (Not sure of the counts ... think they are close, but did it in my head as I wrote.)

Does your track have only two lanes? if so, you are stuck running at most two at a time.

If you have three reasonably well matched lanes, then you have a good option that involves about 130 heats, few "solos", gives every boy at least 3 contested runs, and sends at most 23 boys home without a win in a contested heat. That is to run a triple elim, 3 racing at a time (with 2 racing in one or two heats if the group size is not a multiple of 3). The whole method is at http://www.stanpope.net/nelim.html.
Stan
"If it's not for the boys, it's for the birds!"
User avatar
sporty
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 3344
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:00 am
Location: rockfalls, Illinois

Re: Bracket Generator

Post by sporty »

Stan,

Have you ever seen a double elim race, where for the first 40 minutes of the race.

There is a a dummy car against ever kid in the race ? for the first round ?

I first hand witnessed what appeared to be a illegal race or something ?

I seen the worst sportsmanship from a pack leader. Tossing the car on the ground, stepping on it, so show and prove some strange point of view.

It was deliberate, so that the bye round for the whole bears group. The first round was 1 kid at a time racing the cub master.

Where the cubmaster spent 40 minutes demonstrating how slow his car was against the entire bears group.

He said the computer program picked this due to a odd number of racers.

I would enjoy your thoughts on what appeared to be the worst case of leadership I have seen in awhile.

Sporty
Gameday
Master Pine Head
Master Pine Head
Posts: 277
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:50 pm
Location: Madison, WI

Re: Bracket Generator

Post by Gameday »

Sporty,

I'm not sure I'm following this. Whose car did he step on? It sounds as if every Scout car that raced against him in the 1st round all won. So, since no one got a loss it sounds like that round was pointless? This whole thing sounds weird. What unsportsmanlike thing did he do?

Thanks.
User avatar
sporty
Pine Head Legend
Pine Head Legend
Posts: 3344
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 1:00 am
Location: rockfalls, Illinois

Re: Bracket Generator

Post by sporty »

He was stepping and tossing his own car for what I would call attention value. The shock and awe I call it.

It was repeated a few times. but after 30 minutes, most people thought it was overkill and pointless and a waist of time.

well they announced the kids racing him the winner, so they all won for 40 minutes. during a official race, where there was a claim of a bye round for every scout.

Like I mentioned never seen anything like this. I have seen bye rounds, but not for the whole bear pack.

Sporty
davis
Apprentice
Apprentice
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:46 am
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: Bracket Generator

Post by davis »

hwsjr wrote:My Pack has almost doubled in size since last year. We do a double elimination event because that's what our district uses as well. Does anyone know of a good and cheap bracket generator for up to 80 boys for double elimination? I see free brackets on the internet up to 36 boys, but none beyond that for free.
CHALLONGE.com (free) has a bracket generator for single and double elimination tournaments up to 100 players.
The double elimination logic is pretty good at preventing rematches when possible.
User avatar
gpraceman
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 4919
Joined: Fri Jun 20, 2003 12:46 am
Location: Highlands Ranch, CO
Contact:

Re: Bracket Generator

Post by gpraceman »

davis wrote:CHALLONGE.com (free) has a bracket generator for single and double elimination tournaments up to 100 players.
The double elimination logic is pretty good at preventing rematches when possible.
It seems that this is software that you wrote. It would be good to disclose that up front, even if it is being offered for free.

Personally, I think that single, double and even triple elimination are a poor choice for Pinewood Derby type races. Of course, no two derby track lanes are exactly alike and will run exactly the same, so racers could be handicapped due to luck of the lane draw. I think they are a reasonable choice for other types of tournaments, but not when dealing with derby tracks with more than one lane and who runs on only one lane?

Only a slighty better alternative to a traditional elimination chart would be the hybrid method used in the All American Soap Box Derby. Racers face off in a heat, then the same two racers run in a second heat after they have swapped lanes (and even wheels). The winner of those two heats (by cumulative or differential times) is the one to advance to the next level. That at least addresses the lane equity issue.

I'm not trying to bash your software. I'm sure it works fine. It is just more of an issue of how fair that method is when applied to this type of event.
Randy Lisano
Romans 5:8

Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
davis
Apprentice
Apprentice
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 7:46 am
Location: Indianapolis, IN

Re: Bracket Generator

Post by davis »

good points, and sorry for not disclosing that it is my software. We hold various tournaments at work, so I made the site mainly for that purpose.

The hybrid method sounds perfect for derby races, though it doesn't discount the usefulness of traditional brackets and seeding -- it only impacts the means by which a participant advances. However, I definitely understand your emphasis. It's important to ensure participants are given fair races or series of races before even considering tournament structure.
Post Reply