Something vintage to share

Show off your cool vehicle designs and track burning speedsters!
Speedster
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Re: Something vintage to share

Post by Speedster » Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:35 pm

I know how to help you with writing and publishing and it won't cost you anything. My brother Joe is a book writer, has a PH.d, is a SUPER GREAT guy, lives in Palo Alto, CA and will help us with getting a book published.
Can you answer these questions ?
What is the weight of each of 5 -1953 PWD wheels?
What is the weight of each of 5-CMI wheels?
What is the weight of each of 5-wheels after the CMI wheels?
What is the weight of each of 5-1999 wheels?
What is the weight of each of 5- 2009 wheels?
I can answer them all but one. Wouldn't it be sad if that were to be lost to history. I think at this time in History we can find the answer to any question. You've got a BIG HEAD START on most folks. I think you would get a lot of help. Pictures of cars from 1953 to 1985 would be Priceless.

I keep getting "undeliverable" when I go through the info on Derbytalk.
Here's my email address: scorpiofortynine@roadrunner.com
Send me an email and say "Hi". That should do it. I'll get back to you.
Cheers
Bill



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whodathunkit
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Something vintage to share

Post by whodathunkit » Sun Feb 14, 2016 7:43 pm

Speedster,

For the weight on the wheels used in 1953
Your guess is as good as mine!

Can you guess the weights on the wheels used
In the years from 1954-55?

But if I were to take a guess on the plastic wheels
Used from 56 and on.
I would have to say that the wheels
might be somewere between 3 to 4 grams each.

Same for all the years after 56.

Know why you couldn't email me!
For got to change my email address.
I'v up dated it.
But now I can't log in to DT.

Any of the 5 wheel total's for all the wheels should be around 18 to 21 grams give or take few grams.
On a scale for how many are in the 3 gram range
or in the 4 gram range.

And that's for all the wheels your asking me about after the 1953 -55 wheels.

Even the 1960 wider wheels with the hubs were in the 3-4 gram range.
(The ones that look like the ones from 56.)
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What type of automobile can be spelled the same forwards & backwards?

rwburbage
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Re: Something vintage to share

Post by rwburbage » Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:07 am

whodathunkit wrote:
Tue May 04, 2010 9:03 pm
yEaH! YeAh! yEah! My SpelliNG Is bAd aLSo!
Whodathunkit!!! :shhh: ((( kids do your best in School !)))
And tell your dads to get the book Pinewood! the Story of the Pinewood derby!
Because according to the original 1953 Rules & Regulations in his book
The Over-all length of the car shall not exceed 7-3/4

Image
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1957 Boys' Life Motto..
Better Scouts dererve the Best-
Outdoors or in, they meet the test
You and I can guide there deed's
Serve them better - meet all needs.
Let's make an effort; we surely can
Install and use a Budget Plan-
Fuilling our aims as topflight leaders.
Every boy, this year, a Boys' Life reader.
Image
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How many of you dads with kids in scouting. have heard Donn's story about his dad
and what went wrong.. the day his son's co2 powerd car hit the water sprinkler!
I think we all know why Don Murphy, Invented this pinewood derby car
To do a greater good for the love of his son.. And the kids in Scouting!

Somedays
All I want to be..Is a missing person.
Last seen.... Cub Scouting & doing my best
having fun acting like a kid again!
Discovering how kids can teach us to be
better leaders for their tomorrow/future.
Is there anyway to get the track plans picture uploaded or sent? Thanks for the help. Anyone out there created a replica of the finish line with the modified doorbell design?



Speedster
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Re: Something vintage to share

Post by Speedster » Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:41 pm

Hi there, rwburbage. Welcome to derby talk. You've been a quiet gentleman the past 2 years.

There is a picture of a Pinewood Derby track in the Cub Scout Leader, How To Book, 1987 Printing, and it sold for $6.50. I emailed you a copy of the track. If you are unable to make out all the fine print on the parts please email me your mailing address and I'll mail you a copy.

I'm not familiar with that doorbell system but I'd like to learn more about it.



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whodathunkit
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Re: Something vintage to share

Post by whodathunkit » Sun Nov 18, 2018 7:55 pm

rwburbage wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 9:07 am
Is there anyway to get the track plans picture uploaded or sent? Thanks for the help. Anyone out there created a replica of the finish line with the modified doorbell design?
Speedster wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:41 pm
Hi there, rwburbage. Welcome to derby talk. You've been a quiet gentleman the past 2 years.

There is a picture of a Pinewood Derby track in the Cub Scout Leader, How To Book, 1987 Printing, and it sold for $6.50. I emailed you a copy of the track. If you are unable to make out all the fine print on the parts please email me your mailing address and I'll mail you a copy.

I'm not familiar with that doorbell system but I'd like to learn more about it.
Same here Speedster.. I'm not sure of that system myself!

rwburbage, a few pic's for you..
The suggested track plan page out of the early 8 car bulk sets.
Image

I'm not sure of the modified door bell finish line schematic your looking for .
However here's a pic of the early door bell coil finish line schematic that is seen in Don's book Pinewood..
if this is schematic you were asking to see a photo of.
Image

Speedster..
You've asked me some really good questions about the vintage cars.. So maybe I could pass on some vintage car speed tips that were done. (before it's lost to history!)

For the vintage wheels..
There were regular wheels unshaped.. then there was so called wafer wheels .
To make them you'ed use a 4-36 x 3/4 long bolt and tighten the nut on the back side.. and chuck into a lath or drill to pill the tread from both side of the wheel.
Removing the tread width to with in 1/64" to 1/32" from the web..To chamfer the outside edges of the wheel to a knife like edge.
The wafer wheel shape would beat the regular wheel by a wide margin. (So it's told!)

Axles:
well much like today.. remove the ridges from the under side of the head and the shaft of the nail for a distance of 3/8" to 1/2".

Lube's:
Well no lubes in tell sometime in the 60's .. and then it was graphite!

Weight:
nothing fancy like today weights! lead , steel , or just wood weight.
weight placement .. well for the most part it was to the front or middle .. for the track type and slope type .. unlike today's tracks.

Wheel and axle final assembly:
was to insert the axle thru the wheel and apply glue sparingly to the end of the axle tip down the shaft 1/4" to 1/2"
The wheel gap from the axle support .. norm was 1/8" to 3/16".

Axle support blocks:
The ends were shaped or rounded over to help cut down on the braking effect.

Have you ever seen vintage pwd car's with staple's or twisted wire maybe even wrapped thread around the axle supports..
And have you wounder'ed what this was done for ?
Well it was done to insure the axle would not pop out of the axle support or to fix a broken axle support.
Or as a way to tune the car before gluing the axles in at final assembly.


What type of automobile can be spelled the same forwards & backwards?

rwburbage
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Re: Something vintage to share

Post by rwburbage » Sun Nov 18, 2018 11:38 pm

Nice work guys. Here's lies the mystery. The circuit diagram for the finish gate in the book doesn't match the pictures on page 21 and on the back.

I happen to be the Grand Poobah Pinewood Chairman this year. So I'm looking for fun ideas for race day. My idea is to build an original track with a close replica of the finish gate. Maybe not as long as the full original track but maybe 20ft with the battery operated finish gate.

I happen to find the youtube video by Pinewood Pro.com. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZqDNLs ... ZvMxmaUBki

So in those videos were pictures of the finish gate. It got me thinking it would be a nice display to setup an original track with period cars.

From there I found the book at PinewoodPro.com, Pinewood, The Story of Pinewood Derby. Fun read with great pictures.

Before the book arrived I spent time thinking how this was done. In the video Donn mentioned about it's made from a doorbell. I thought about it and guessed that it had to be custom made using the doorbell parts creating a relay of some sort for the finish lights. So when the faster car won, it killed the light bulb circuit from the loser side.

So when the book arrived I quickly flipped to find the circuit. Inside the book at page 21, there it was. The circuit diagram! There, the diagram showed the contacts at the end where the bell used to be. So that made sense. This would separate the light bulb winner circuit. The doorbell flex contact was removed also or it would just chatter on and off and flash the light too fast. That could have been a cool effect though. A kind of frankenstein movie prop effect sound with flashing light. This was either a two door bell part or a complete mod. Something to the effect of custom mounting the coils from 2 doorbells. Then mounting the arm with custom contacts at the end for the lights. It would be neat to see this custom made relay part close up.

But this 6 battery diagram doesn't match what I see in the picture on the back of the book and the 2 pictures on page 21. The pictures show a 2 battery setup but I can't make out the rest. There looks to be something in between the 2 Ray-O-Vac batteries. My guess would be that the original prototype was a 2 battery setup and wasn't powerful enough or the bulbs were too dim. So the book shows a more refined version most likely sent out for packs to build. Maybe too, is this custom made relay part was in this unit but the bulbs were too dim and it drained the 2 early version "D" batteries too quickly so it was changed to 2 batteries in series for 3v doubled in parallel for more current. Then the 2 in series for 3v to the bulb to be brighter.

Is there anyway you could clear this up with larger pics of the original finish gate? I tried contacting the PWDfounder@aol.com but the address didn't work anymore.

Any where did that track build version show up? This looks to predate the book version. It looks more simpler than the book version.

Thanks for the help!
Richard.



Speedster
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Re: Something vintage to share

Post by Speedster » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:11 am

Congratulations rwburbage, on what you are going to do. Might we get pictures of the track and timing system when you have it completed? I think you will have One of a kind.
Best wishes.



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Re: Something vintage to share

Post by rwburbage » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:12 pm

Well thanks! Of course I'll post. I've been playing around with 2 doorbells from grainger today. Moving the coil around to measure the electromagnetic strength on the bar. So, I can see this working. I need better pictures to see how it was done originally. Just to pay tribute to the effort. ? Were the coils mounted on a piece of plywood or was a double coiled door bell used. What were the light contacts made from on the middle arm? How long was the arm? I'm sure it had a homemade look to it. I can't think of anything made at that time that would act as a SPDT relay manufactured similar to a doorbell. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relay

The wiring diagram at the door bell coils seems to indicate that the wiring was intentionally setup for (+)and (-). My understanding of electromagnetic coils is that polarity doesn't matter or with DC or AC as the source. At the end of the ferrite core, it produces the pull in the same direction based on what direction the coil wire was wound. Which would attract the bar with the lightbulb contacts closer to make contact and complete the light bulb circuit for the winning lane.

So, there is also a concern with battery drain after each heat. When the winner pops through the gate, this turns on the winning lane coil(s) and the arm makes contact for the light bulb. The second place car pops through and turns on it's coils but not the light. The arm with contacts has already been electromagnetically pulled to the other side. The coils stay on and the light stays on until each gate lever is reset turning off the coils and the light. This is a serious battery drain at more than 1A.

So, both lane coils and 1 lightbulb are constantly draining the batteries until the gate levers are reset which turns off the coils and light circuit. Maybe a power switch as soon as the race is done, kill power to save battery or most likely flip the gate levers back as soon as the winner is confirmed.

Fun the think about...



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whodathunkit
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Something vintage to share

Post by whodathunkit » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:58 pm

Could it be that what you are seeing that look to be 2 batteries setting on the top of finish line system in the early track photos.

Could they be the 2 lucite containers for making the light bulb covers In red and white.
My guess would be that the lucite container light covers were probably made from the 1940-50’s Confetti lucite lipstick tubes or candy holders back then.

I'll have to pull out the book after work today.. and take a closer look at the early track photos and pages your talking about however.

(EDIT)
After taking a closer look at the early track photos and the one seen on the back of Don's book they do look like batteries to me as well.
On the back cover of his book.. just above the two cub scouts hats that are standing in front of the finish line.. look 's to me to be the 2 lucite light bulb covers.

Never really took note of the finish line system however .. tell now.



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What type of automobile can be spelled the same forwards & backwards?

rwburbage
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Re: Something vintage to share

Post by rwburbage » Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:58 pm

Thanks. Let me know what you think about the pics on page 21 and the back. I'm leaning towards this was most likely the original setup with 2 batteries. Maybe later realized that the 2 batteries didn't last long and they bumped it up to the 6 battery configuration. There doesn't seem to be a cover for it to hold the lucite lenses. Plus the box looks smaller and with little tabs on the gate levers.

My races were in '71 and '72. In those days "D" batteries purchased had a short life. You had to figure out if they were "fresh". There were many times at buying batteries that were almost dead on the shelf. Then if you left them in your metal flashlight too long, they died and then leaked destroying the flashlight. Too cold or hot weather killed them also. Today, they are left outside year round in temp sensors for your home weather stations and they keep on ticking...

How do I attach pics? Ok, tiny pic. that works...

Here's what I got so far. The 2 doorbell kits have all of the parts needed. I need to mount it on something. Since the project is mostly wood, I'll look around for some 1/8 ply scrap...

Image



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whodathunkit
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Something vintage to share

Post by whodathunkit » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:23 pm

rwburbage wrote:
Mon Nov 19, 2018 7:58 pm
Thanks. Let me know what you think about the pics on page 21 and the back. I'm leaning towards this was most likely the original setup with 2 batteries. Maybe later realized that the 2 batteries didn't last long and they bumped it up to the 6 battery configuration. There doesn't seem to be a cover for it to hold the lucite lenses.
rwburbage
Now that you've got me thinking about this some more..
i just recalled where iv'e seen it said as well.. that this system could have been power'ed with four 1 1/2 volt batteries as well.
look whats said on pg 1 of 11 on this link:
http://www.pack798.org/Documents/Pinewo ... Trivia.pdf

Anyhow I think your on to something about original set up!
To me on the back cover photo in Don's book it looks to be 2 D size batteries.. however in scale size it seems to be a set of 4
because there also seems to be a black band or sometime seen in the middle of the batteries that could make them a pair of 4 .
As for the 6 battery system.. well like you I'm not seeing a total of 6 in any of the photos as it's very hard to tell.
Last edited by whodathunkit on Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.


What type of automobile can be spelled the same forwards & backwards?

rwburbage
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Re: Something vintage to share

Post by rwburbage » Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:46 pm

Yes, that makes sense in that note. So, more than likely the 4 batteries were for the coils alone. In the diagram on pg21, it shows 2 coils per side in series. I just played around with wiring these 2 coils in series and they have a weaker pull on the metal and use less current. That's interesting. I wonder if DM played around with that. Setting them up in parallel made it twice the pull and 2 times the current draw!

I'm trying to stay with one coil per side to keep a strong pull on the metal arm with light bulb contacts and keep the current drain down. So far, playing around with the coils, they aren't super strong or fast with the pull to one side or the other. This could be a problem if the cars enter the finish gate very close together. I may have to get 2 more door bells and pull the coils from them as they are made for 3V-6V and wire in parallel. This will double the battery drain but hopefully will speed up the movement of the arm. Plus maybe have to stagger the 2nd coil so they aren't so strong that they cancel each other out.

That would be a good test. Wire both coils together and calibrate and adjust the coils so the arm stays in the middle not touching either side. So a tie or close tie would be no winner. The coils are the slowest device that could be used and the delay time is huge compared the what we have today with digi electronics.

The note didn't mention the batteries for the light bulbs. They might have missed that.

"The original track design was two lanes with a declining four-foot ramp. The electrical finish
line was built with two doorbell coils, powered by four, 1 ½ volt batteries. Light bulbs would
identify the winners."

Image
Image

and now the hard part. mounting all these parts so they are adjustable. It's going to take hours... :scratching:

1120182043 tinypic.com is down, so the pictures aren't showing up...
1120182142 tinypic.com is up, the pictures are showing now...

Happy Turkey Day!

I ordered another 2 doorbells to remove the coils... waiting for those. I'll have the turn the coils around on the "L" brackets and create a slot for fine tuning the distance from the light bulb contact arm...



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