Good/Bad experience on race day

[dknowles67]

We had our Pack's races this past Sunday ( 1 /8 ).
My youngest son is a 1st year Webelo, so this is his 4th Cub-Scout pinewood derby race. (he's done 5 Indian Guides chule car races as well).
I volunteered to help out, and found myself doing the weigh-in/inspections.
Our pack's derby rules require that you "use the wheels that come in the kit".
We had two scouts show up, with non-BSA wheels.

One scout (I only spoke with his dad, the scout held back, and didn't seem at all involved), had 2 spoked wheels on the front, and official BSA wheels on the back. The car was also slightly overweight. The dad argued with me for a while about the weight, saying he was sure it was dead-on 5.0 oz. I explained that it didn't matter what he thought the actual weight was, the only weight that mattered was the official scale weight. I weighed it several times, to give him the benefit of the doubt, and it was overweight everytime. He finally agreed to take it and remove some weight. But he refused to swap out wheels (I had several sets of spare BSA wheels on hand). He looked me in the eye several times, and said those were the wheels that "came in the kit". I sent him to discuss it with the Cub-master, and the Cub-master agreed to let him race with the illegal wheels (in hopes that he wouldn't win).
Now I've been involved in the pack for more than 7 years, and this is the first time I've seen this gentleman. We had prepared a list of registered scouts in the pack beforehand, and this scout was not on the list (but apparently he had signed up with the pack, as some people knew him). As fas as I know, he's never been to a pack meeting, or been to any other activities. I could tell this was a fast car, and a serious contender for winning the pack overall. I tried to get the cub-master to change his mind, but to no avail. Since my son, was pretty much a shoe-in for 1st place until this guy showed up, I was afraid how it might look if I made too much of a fuss. It's only a race, and I decided to let it go.

Later another scout said he "lost" his original wheels, and Dad picked some up at a Hobby shop. His car looked really cool, but I could tell it was not going to one of the fastest. Since the precident had been set, I let it go.

Well sure enough, in the Webelo age bracket, my son, and Mr. Illegal Wheels were the two fastest cars. Our wooden track is old and bumpy, and some lanes are clearly faster than others. I was busy checking in the Bear scouts, while the Webelo races were going on, so I didn't get to watch. My son got 2nd place, Mr. Illegal Wheels 1st. My son was pretty upset. He asked me why I let that other car race with illegal wheels. I didn't know how to answer. Fortunately, 10 year olds get over that stuff pretty quickly, and he was soon off playing with his friends.

After all 4 age brackets had raced, our Pack had an overall race, with the 2 fastest cars from each age group. Once again, it came down to my son's car, and Mr. Illegal Wheels. This time my son's car beat him twice, and my son got the 1st place trophy for the Pack.
I guess my son is pretty popular, because the other scouts were cheering for him, against this scout who has never showed up before.
I felt sorry for him.

Pictures here:
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/dknowles6 ... /my_photos

[sporty]

that is to bad that happened.

It does seem for our local race that alot of people come to the race, that you dont typically see for the weekly get togethers or meetings.

Sporty

[michael4262]

Yep ... too bad your CubMaster made the call to allow the 2 cars to race. An obvious rule violation, such as length/width/weight/wheels/axles is automatically rejected in our pack. We'll assist in any way possible to help the boys get their cars within guidelines, but the inspection team has the final say. The wheels may not have made a difference, but the point is to be a good sport and to play by the rules. Ah well ... hope you can clear up the rules for next year.

[Whistler]

I had a similar problem two years ago with a car that showed up with the older style BSA wheels (recessed hubs). While the pack did have some of the older wheels in a "discard" box I was pretty sure that none of them made it into the kits that were distributed to the scouts. I mentioned to the scout/father team that these wheels were not strictly legal, that we had legal wheels if he wanted to switch his wheels, and that I would be happy to help them tuneup a set of legal wheels for the race. The parent maintained that the wheels were what came in the kit (unlikely) and that he had no intention of taking apart the car the day before the race (we have a modification/impound day before the race so all the boys can insure their cars make it down the track, are at legal weight...). Faced with this reluctance I called for a committee vote and it was decided to let the car race as is. Fortunately this car did not end up taking any prizes for speed, but it left a sour taste in my mouth none the less.

I guess my feeling is if you aren't going to follow your own rules, why bother having any at all? That is why I feel strongly about having clear, testable rules for the race to level the field as much as possible. For example we used to have a rule that all four wheels had to rest on the track surface. Not only is this difficult to check in the time allotted for checkin, but it is very hard for the average cub scout to be that accurate in construction. Invariably the winning cars had only 3 wheels touching, so we dumped that rule. Another difficult, and frankly silly, rule is the one restricting lubricants. It is almost impossible to check during inspection, and with winning cars being reported using lubricants as varied as Liquid Pledge, finely milled graphite, and SB 40, why limit the options for the scouts? Our rule now reads that any lubricant that does not appreciably foul the track is acceptable. We do caution that some lubricants don't seem to work well at all (i.e. WD-40 and Dry-White), but let the teams do their own research and come to their own conclusions. Actually I'd prefer to eliminate the graphite altogether as that is usually the messiest lube at our races, requiring regular wipe down of the track surface, but tradition would not allow that.

Guess I've wandered a bit off topic, but the bottom line is this. If you are going to have rules, make them reasonable and enforcable (actually that covers a lot outside of the PWD). For my part, the last two years I've opened all the boxes and personally inspected each wheel to ensure that there are no repeats of "that's what came in the box, man...". It also permits making mold matched sets for each scout (though which number mold they get is by chance) and rejecting the evil #13 wheels. We always purchase a few extra kits to be prepared for any problems so have extra wheels to accomodate.

[dknowles67]

I'm reluctant to post something on a public forum that may be taken as criticism of the way my pack runs the pinewood derby. I blame myself for waiting until too late this year. Maybe if I had started in October, instead of the Christmas break, things would have been better. For several years in the past I have encouraged the cub-master to clarify our rules, distribute the rules before, or at the same time as the car kits, and ultimately enforce the rules on race day. This year (we have a new cub-master) my suggestions seem to go further than any previous year, and I have hopes that next year will be better still. I had typed up a set of rule clarifications based on my personal interpretations of our pack's rules. In it, I specified clearly that you had to use the BSA wheels, and included a detailed description of them. I was reluctant to e-mail this to the Den Leaders, as it was based on my personal opinions, and not agreed to by a committee or anything. I sent it to the cub-master for approval, but it did not get distributed. I'm sure everyone did their best.
To me, a good rule is one that can be enforced.
And to be fair, the rules must be available to the car builders before they start building, and they must be enforced on race-day.
Anything else seems to leave room for disappointment.

[Whistler]

I absolutely agree. Sounds like you need a PWD committee for your pack (rather active in our pack as the PWD is one of our biggest events)and not lay all the decisions on the Cubmaster who is typically rather overworked and often far from an "expert" in the PWD.

We have a 7 page booklet including our rules, information about the track, awards, judging criteria, and technical tips for construction that is distributed with the kits at least 2 months before the race. This document has been refined over a period of years and works pretty well for us. I guess I could send you a copy if it would help for future years, but it is rather specific to our pack structure. Might provide you a starting point though.

[PWTom]

We had our Pinewood Derby on Saturday and had a number of interesting "issues" come up.

First, I think there must be some of the "old style" wheels still in the kits. We had two Cubs with those types of wheels and I am fairly certain they used what came in their kit. I caught one set a week ahead at an early inspection workshop and he was able to change to the more standard set. The second set showed up about 10 minutes before racing, and we made the decision to let him race as is. I was fairly certain the car was not going to compete for trophies and I did not feel it was fair to penalize the boy for using what he got.

The second event occured after the race. The Cubmaster, his son and I were admiring the cars that made the top 6 in the Pack. One car was quite fast and we were discussing his weight placement when I noticed that the axles were not BSA nails, but some other nail style with a greatly reduced head. The Cubmaster said, "that car should have been disqualified. We missed that during inspection!" The car came in third in the Pack and we discussed what to do, but the races were over, finishes announced and everyone had gone home. We'll just keep quiet on this one and do a better job of training the inspection crew next year.

We also had two cars with Pinecar wheels and axles come up and we required that those be changed out for compliant BSA wheels and axles.

Our rules specifically state that the BSA wheels and axles must be used. A copy of the rules are handed out with each kit and are posted on our Web site. I also sent two e-mail reminders, discussed it at length in workshops, and mentioned it in Pack meetings. But still you get folks who claim "I didn't know!"

[joe]

Our District has a good rule: if a car is ruled ineligible for one reason or another, it can still race, but not compete for trophies, etc.

[Stan Pope]

Our District has a good rule: if a car is ruled ineligible for one reason or another, it can still race, but not compete for trophies, etc.

This is good if the car's presence does not upset the accuracy. For instance, racing by time would not be affected.

Racing double elimination could be very bad... good cars eliminated by an "outlaw."

Racing by "points final standings" would crate a few more ties that need to be resolved.

[bthere]

This is one of the reasons that we instituted an Outlaw race. We want everyone to be able to run their car, even if the can't or won't bring it to specification. We try to make sure that everyone knows that there is no stigma attached to the "Outlaw" name in this instance -- it is just another way to have fun. We encourage our Scouts to experiment and push the boundaries by entering a second car in the Outlaw race. If they don't have a car in the Pack races, they can enter two cars in the Outlaw race. This outlet seems to help keep everyone having a good time and reduces some of the pressure when a car can't pass inspection.

[Whistler]

The second event occured after the race. The Cubmaster, his son and I were admiring the cars that made the top 6 in the Pack. One car was quite fast and we were discussing his weight placement when I noticed that the axles were not BSA nails, but some other nail style with a greatly reduced head. The Cubmaster said, "that car should have been disqualified. We missed that during inspection!" The car came in third in the Pack and we discussed what to do, but the races were over, finishes announced and everyone had gone home. We'll just keep quiet on this one and do a better job of training the inspection crew next year.

Also need to be careful disqualifying cars for apparently non-BSA axles. Some racers, including us, do significant modification to the head of a BSA axle to remove flashing, bevel the inner face of the head, and reduce the diameter of the head itself. This year the axles have been particularly bad, and need even more work than usual. Reducing the head diameter can easily be done with a small triangular file and electric drill (though we use a minilathe for consistancy as our rules allow any and all modifications to axles). I would hazard to guess that if you viewed our finished axles there would be no way you could tell that they were official BSA kit axles from stock, other than the honor system.

Just another reason to agitate for better kit axles. There is really no reason some kind of manufactured pin couldn't be shipped with the kits instead of the cheap plated nails currently used. At the volume of BSA kits produced annually, I can't believe a better quality axle would add more than $0.25 to the cost of producing the kits. I'm sure that most packs and parents would be glad to spend this for axles that only needed a light polish (or no work at all) to race with.

[michael4262]

We encourage our Scouts to experiment and push the boundaries by entering a second car in the Outlaw race.

I really like this idea .... do you have your rules posted on a website that I can view?

[Da Graphite Kid]

An Outlaw Race is a great idea! I would appreciate any rules you may have on this as well. We are running a Siblings Race for the young brothers and sisters of our Cub Scouts and an Adults Race for the Leaders, Parents and brothers/sisters that are 13 and above.

Da Graphite Kid

[Darin McGrew]

We encourage our Scouts to experiment and push the boundaries by entering a second car in the Outlaw race.

I really like this idea .... do you have your rules posted on a website that I can view?

Rules? For an "outlaw" race?

The one's I've seen have prohibited damaging or interfering with the track, start gate, finish gate, other cars, etc., but otherwise left everything pretty open.

[bthere]

I really like this idea .... do you have your rules posted on a website that I can view?

We don't post the rules on the web site. They are handed out to all the Scouts and emailed to all the parents.

Basically, the rules say that the car must fit on the track, and we provide the length from our start pins to the leading edge of the track, the height limited by our finish line, and the lane center guide size. We do limit the maximum width to prevent interference with adjacent lanes. We limit the wieght to some large amount that I don't recall at this moment so that the track stopping system won't be damaged.

The other rule is a general guide that says you musn't interfere with, contaminate or leave residue on, or otherwise harm the equipment, other cars, or the environment.

Other than those guidelines we just say let your imagination run wild, go fast, be a good sport, and have a good time.