Rules violations, kit cars, and attitudes (long read)
Re: Rules violations, kit cars, and attitudes (long read)
You stuck to your guns and then later helped the Webelo out to make him compliant. Great job!
Gluing the axles in is a must if you do a lot of axle/wheel alignment and you remove and insert the axles a bunch of times.
Gluing the axles in is a must if you do a lot of axle/wheel alignment and you remove and insert the axles a bunch of times.
- ranman106
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Re: Rules violations, kit cars, and attitudes (long read)
I have been reading the postings to this thread and want to comment/clarify on some things.
We do allow grooved axles, the rules state the axles and tips must be visible. This is for inspection. If we can see them, they don't have to be pulled.
We had a kit car dominate our PWD last year. He went on to clean up at Districts as well. He had purchased speed axles and covered them with glue to disguise them. They slipped through inspection. So, visible axles was a hot topic this year. The Webelo was going to have to remove the wheels anyway to cut the slots.
It would have qualified for our Outlaw race. But, the Outlaw race is the night before after track set up.
A small drop of super glue GEL is the way to go when gluing in axles.
I agree, there is more to the parents not being their than we know.
Thanks for the words of encouragement.
We do allow grooved axles, the rules state the axles and tips must be visible. This is for inspection. If we can see them, they don't have to be pulled.
We had a kit car dominate our PWD last year. He went on to clean up at Districts as well. He had purchased speed axles and covered them with glue to disguise them. They slipped through inspection. So, visible axles was a hot topic this year. The Webelo was going to have to remove the wheels anyway to cut the slots.
It would have qualified for our Outlaw race. But, the Outlaw race is the night before after track set up.
A small drop of super glue GEL is the way to go when gluing in axles.
I agree, there is more to the parents not being their than we know.
Thanks for the words of encouragement.
Last edited by ranman106 on Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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- 2kids10horses
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Re: Rules violations, kit cars, and attitudes (long read)
ranman,
How did you find out the kid last year ran with purchased speed axles? Did he fess up after District?
We don't inspect for the tips of the axles. At least I don't think we do. There's nothing in our rules about that. We can't see our axles in the rear because they're under the tungsten plates in the rear, and the front ones are buried in wax paper shims!
2K10H
How did you find out the kid last year ran with purchased speed axles? Did he fess up after District?
We don't inspect for the tips of the axles. At least I don't think we do. There's nothing in our rules about that. We can't see our axles in the rear because they're under the tungsten plates in the rear, and the front ones are buried in wax paper shims!
2K10H
- ranman106
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Re: Rules violations, kit cars, and attitudes (long read)
2K10H,
After the race, his father told me which axles he bought from MaxV. So, when I checked them out on the web site, I saw the car he purchased as well - The Lowrider. He bought a whole kit!
After districts, his mother made a statement to the effect that if you wanted to win at districts, you had to buy it. I guess that was their only alternative to beating my son's car after 3 years of stiff competition.
After the race, his father told me which axles he bought from MaxV. So, when I checked them out on the web site, I saw the car he purchased as well - The Lowrider. He bought a whole kit!
After districts, his mother made a statement to the effect that if you wanted to win at districts, you had to buy it. I guess that was their only alternative to beating my son's car after 3 years of stiff competition.
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- BigDozer66
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Re: Rules violations, kit cars, and attitudes (long read)
There are different types of Super Glue. Slow setting and Fast Setting types and the fast setting doesn't run near as bad as the other.
I suppose the gel glue would work similarly.
Lynn
I suppose the gel glue would work similarly.
Lynn
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Cubmaster and AWANA Game Director
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Re: Rules violations, kit cars, and attitudes (long read)
I've found that wood glue works much better.
It isn't as toxic, holds the axles in place, and if you need to
remove the axles for any reason it will break loose with
less force than super glue.
It also is more consistent in drying time. Super glue can
be unpredictable. When building radio control gliders, we
have found that the air (moisture, temp, and how much of
the cynoacrylite fumes are present from working in the area
with the super glue) will radically change drying times.
Wood glue is ready to use in less than 10 minutes, unless
the axles fit really sloppy in the holes (we don't use slots)
It sounds like the wrong glue for the job, but wood glue
(the yellow aliphatic resin type... haven't tried white glue)
works perfect.
On the axle inspection topic... what's to stop a cheater from
shaping the tips of the axles to mimic the BSA axles' nail point?
What if someone cuts the tip off of a stock BSA axle, would he
be disqualified?
Personally, I think kit cars and such even the playing field a bit.
I have a very extensive workshop, and have access to CNC equipment
if I really want it. I an turn the stock components into as good as or
better than any you can buy. I don't have time to do it, and I like
the act of building the cars (for leaders' class cars) and I also like
to keep my kids' cars somewhat simple (so that they can do more
of it by themselves)... but there are parents who can build cars
that most others do not have resources to even come close to.
Maybe some races should have a rookie class for those who have
never built a car and competed before.
Another good class would be a buil & race competition where
the car is built an hour or two before the race. Some quick drying
paints and 1/4" wire lead (or a no lead allowed requirement).
Could even require use of a knife and handsaws to carve the cars,
or have a few pre-cut styles for them to shoose from.
I've also heard os a class where the object is to be the slowest car
that can make it across the finish line... that takes some engineering.
It isn't as toxic, holds the axles in place, and if you need to
remove the axles for any reason it will break loose with
less force than super glue.
It also is more consistent in drying time. Super glue can
be unpredictable. When building radio control gliders, we
have found that the air (moisture, temp, and how much of
the cynoacrylite fumes are present from working in the area
with the super glue) will radically change drying times.
Wood glue is ready to use in less than 10 minutes, unless
the axles fit really sloppy in the holes (we don't use slots)
It sounds like the wrong glue for the job, but wood glue
(the yellow aliphatic resin type... haven't tried white glue)
works perfect.
On the axle inspection topic... what's to stop a cheater from
shaping the tips of the axles to mimic the BSA axles' nail point?
What if someone cuts the tip off of a stock BSA axle, would he
be disqualified?
Personally, I think kit cars and such even the playing field a bit.
I have a very extensive workshop, and have access to CNC equipment
if I really want it. I an turn the stock components into as good as or
better than any you can buy. I don't have time to do it, and I like
the act of building the cars (for leaders' class cars) and I also like
to keep my kids' cars somewhat simple (so that they can do more
of it by themselves)... but there are parents who can build cars
that most others do not have resources to even come close to.
Maybe some races should have a rookie class for those who have
never built a car and competed before.
Another good class would be a buil & race competition where
the car is built an hour or two before the race. Some quick drying
paints and 1/4" wire lead (or a no lead allowed requirement).
Could even require use of a knife and handsaws to carve the cars,
or have a few pre-cut styles for them to shoose from.
I've also heard os a class where the object is to be the slowest car
that can make it across the finish line... that takes some engineering.
Re: Rules violations, kit cars, and attitudes (long read)
Here's a different thought on rules from our free book.
Rules for the Pinewood Derby - Innovate and Educate, Don't Legislate.
1. You must use the car supplied by the organization. Use of pre-cut or purchased speed products is prohibited. This is an honor system requirement. (You can even buy 'championship' cars on Ebay!) [I now note that this doesn't make a weight exception which it should.]
2. Weight: 5.00 ounces or less, 4.90 or more will be accepted without further change. Three attempts to reach the correct weight range. then the committee does it. The official scale is official.
3. Length: 7 inches max. Width: Typically 2.75”, can vary by track. Clearance: 3/16” for SuperTrack with no center guide. Higher for center guide tracks. Overall Height: optional specification.
4. Gravity powered. No power assist devices such as rubber bands or magnets.
5. ANYTHING ELSE GOES. (innovate don't legislate).
6. The winning racer, not Dad, in each category must (upon presentation of the award), give a five minute speech on their best speed secrets. (educate). The number of winners who must talk is a committee decision.
The Bad News. These rules won't work if the winners go on to compete at a higher level with different rules, unless you can get the folks at the higher level to follow these simple and smart rules. Instead of teaching the kids to cheat, we teach them to think and perhaps to speak. What a concept!
Those are the rules for the cars. Here's the one rule for the adults courtesy of one of our Soap Box Derby users. "The Officials for the Derby are volunteers. Before you criticize their decisions, be prepared to take their place."
Rules for the Pinewood Derby - Innovate and Educate, Don't Legislate.
1. You must use the car supplied by the organization. Use of pre-cut or purchased speed products is prohibited. This is an honor system requirement. (You can even buy 'championship' cars on Ebay!) [I now note that this doesn't make a weight exception which it should.]
2. Weight: 5.00 ounces or less, 4.90 or more will be accepted without further change. Three attempts to reach the correct weight range. then the committee does it. The official scale is official.
3. Length: 7 inches max. Width: Typically 2.75”, can vary by track. Clearance: 3/16” for SuperTrack with no center guide. Higher for center guide tracks. Overall Height: optional specification.
4. Gravity powered. No power assist devices such as rubber bands or magnets.
5. ANYTHING ELSE GOES. (innovate don't legislate).
6. The winning racer, not Dad, in each category must (upon presentation of the award), give a five minute speech on their best speed secrets. (educate). The number of winners who must talk is a committee decision.
The Bad News. These rules won't work if the winners go on to compete at a higher level with different rules, unless you can get the folks at the higher level to follow these simple and smart rules. Instead of teaching the kids to cheat, we teach them to think and perhaps to speak. What a concept!
Those are the rules for the cars. Here's the one rule for the adults courtesy of one of our Soap Box Derby users. "The Officials for the Derby are volunteers. Before you criticize their decisions, be prepared to take their place."
- Darin McGrew
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Re: Rules violations, kit cars, and attitudes (long read)
I don't really like the "then the committee does it" part. If a car can't be brought under 5oz without major changes, then maybe the owner of the car would rather not race it than damage their creation. And the owner should be free to run a light car without "the committee" adding unwanted extra weight.SuperDave wrote:2. Weight: 5.00 ounces or less, 4.90 or more will be accepted without further change. Three attempts to reach the correct weight range. then the committee does it. The official scale is official.
FWIW, we specify the maximum height of the car's nose (based on the height of the starting pins) and the maximum overall height (based on the height of the finish gate).SuperDave wrote:3. Length: 7 inches max. Width: Typically 2.75”, can vary by track. Clearance: 3/16” for SuperTrack with no center guide. Higher for center guide tracks. Overall Height: optional specification.
And we specify a maximum distance between the nose and the rear axle (based on the starting gate). Some of the kids like to include decorations that stick out behind the car: chenille wire "greens" for a carrot car, a chenille wire tail for a mouse car, an antenna for a walkie-talkie or telephone car, etc.
Re: Rules violations, kit cars, and attitudes (long read)
One of my "Stand on my soapbox and shout." issues. Just who is the "owner"? I of course make the (previously unstated) assumption that kids, typically between 7 and 9 years old, are racing. I try to take their point of view and support their concerns. Many times I have seen the a dad bring the car back to the scale five and ten times looking for that extra gram as the racer (a kid remember) stands there wondering why their dad is such a fool. In my opinion allowing the dad to be the 'owner' is nuts and we should do all in our power to discourage it.the owner of the car
I do not ever recall an 'owner' wishing to run a light car but clearly they should be allowed to if they wish. The committee and/or inspectors have no reason to add weight. Also, if the track start area has limits those should be mentioned. Nose height and nose to rear wheel are reasonable suggestions. The idea of our suggested rules is embodied in the title, "Innovate and Educate, don't Legislate." The more RULES you add the more cheating you encourage, the harder you make inspection and the more likely you are to have controversy. I believe that you should keep the rules to a minimum and encourage creativity and imagination. It ain't NASCAR! Or, at least in my humble opinion it shouldn't be.
Re: Rules violations, kit cars, and attitudes (long read)
I think that pretty much every Pinewood Derby does all three of these things, albeit to differing extents. The proper balance is a matter of opinion, nothing more.SuperDave wrote:"Innovate and Educate, don't Legislate."
- Darin McGrew
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Re: Rules violations, kit cars, and attitudes (long read)
Whose name is on the car? If it's an adult, then the car races in the All Comers division. But most of them are owned and built by kids (with adult help as needed).SuperDave wrote:Just who is the "owner"?
I've never seen that, but we have supplies available for adding small amounts of weight on registration night. We also have tools for removing weight, but we encourage everyone to bring their cars to registration just a little light, because it's easier to add a bit more weight than to remove weight.SuperDave wrote:Many times I have seen the a dad bring the car back to the scale five and ten times looking for that extra gram as the racer (a kid remember) stands there wondering why their dad is such a fool.
It's rare, but I've seen very design-oriented cars that just didn't have anywhere else to add weight without it being conspicuous. So the owners ran their cars a bit light. And I've seen design-oriented cars that could not be brought under the 5oz weight limit, where the owner (usually an adult in the All Comers division) decided to just display it as is, and not worry about racing it.SuperDave wrote:I do not ever recall an 'owner' wishing to run a light car but clearly they should be allowed to if they wish.
Well, all the various minimum/maximum dimensions fall under one "must fit our track" rule. We designed the rules so everyone can "just build the car" and not worry about fitting the track, but some kids (and adults) like to "think outside the block", so we include more specific dimensions they'll need to consider when building a more unusual design.SuperDave wrote:The more RULES you add the more cheating you encourage, the harder you make inspection and the more likely you are to have controversy.
- CuriousGeorge
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Re: Rules violations, kit cars, and attitudes (long read)
AMEN! The rules for our pack and district race are the rules that are in the box. This makes it very easy to check the cars in.SuperDave wrote:The more RULES you add the more cheating you encourage, the harder you make inspection and the more likely you are to have controversy. I believe that you should keep the rules to a minimum and encourage creativity and imagination.
CuriousGeorge
"They say you learn by your mistakes, in that case I must be a genius."
"They say you learn by your mistakes, in that case I must be a genius."
Re: Rules violations, kit cars, and attitudes (long read)
I don't know why everyone wants the parent(s) to help their boys build the cars (part of the orignial idea I recall was to gets parents and boys to spend time together) then want them to have nothing to do with their boys when it comes to check in and racing.
To me, the boy, and by extension the parent(s), own the car. A committee should never force anything upon them that isn't a rules correction.
The parent(s) have to be the ones to pick up the pieces if the boy's car doesn't do well and they take it hard. Let them use their judgement as to how to handle their own situations.
About the parents getting cars up to weight, that could be a by-product of the parents understanding the importance, and the boy may not care that point in time - at our check in we have a practice track setup and all the boys are worried about is racing last years cars against one another.
We try not to let them race the current year's car without someone there to make sure damage doesn't happen by accident.
Our track isn't very good, we rent for our derby. Had a boy step on his car last year.
Or it could be that they have no idea where to put the weight with the design they chose - which happens for our group a lot.
To me, the boy, and by extension the parent(s), own the car. A committee should never force anything upon them that isn't a rules correction.
The parent(s) have to be the ones to pick up the pieces if the boy's car doesn't do well and they take it hard. Let them use their judgement as to how to handle their own situations.
About the parents getting cars up to weight, that could be a by-product of the parents understanding the importance, and the boy may not care that point in time - at our check in we have a practice track setup and all the boys are worried about is racing last years cars against one another.
We try not to let them race the current year's car without someone there to make sure damage doesn't happen by accident.
Our track isn't very good, we rent for our derby. Had a boy step on his car last year.
Or it could be that they have no idea where to put the weight with the design they chose - which happens for our group a lot.
Re: Rules violations, kit cars, and attitudes (long read)
Rules are designed as guidelines, honesty and integrity can not be legislated. Reminds me of a law enforcement adage : "Locks are designed to keep honest people honest, thieves will always get in!"CuriousGeorge wrote:AMEN! The rules for our pack and district race are the rules that are in the box. This makes it very easy to check the cars in.SuperDave wrote:The more RULES you add the more cheating you encourage, the harder you make inspection and the more likely you are to have controversy. I believe that you should keep the rules to a minimum and encourage creativity and imagination.
How does keeping rules to a minimum encourage creativity and imagination? I would think the opposite is true. The rules in the box are as liberal as you can get, almost anything goes under the "if they don't say you can't you can" interpretation. Now tighten the boundaries and limit leeway, I think you have to become quite creative to gain same advantage.
- ranman106
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Re: Rules violations, kit cars, and attitudes (long read)
Very well stated Doct1010. A point I agree with completely.doct1010 wrote:Rules are designed as guidelines, honesty and integrity can not be legislated. Reminds me of a law enforcement adage : "Locks are designed to keep honest people honest, thieves will always get in!"
How does keeping rules to a minimum encourage creativity and imagination? I would think the opposite is true. The rules in the box are as liberal as you can get, almost anything goes under the "if they don't say you can't you can" interpretation. Now tighten the boundaries and limit leeway, I think you have to become quite creative to gain same advantage.
The Wedge - It's not a doorstop, it's a way of life!