How Internet has changed Pinewood Derby !!

[sporty]

It was not long ago,

Tips, mods, wheels, axles. were all but a secret handed down to friends and family.

With the invent of the Internet.


Bang- Came the explosion of free information !! Web sites created selling books, tips, kits and all sorts of goodies.


What is has done for Pine Wood derby is give the average person a chance at a better car and great chance of learning and teaching there children more.

It has also created claims, of Super fast cars and the best this and the best that !


So there are dawn falls, but less of them than of the positive it has created for Cub Scouts and Pinewood Derby.


Yet, The average pack race or district race that I have been to over the past 5 years.

I see more and more, kit cars, and all sorts of online goodies on the cars.


Sometimes bad, if it is outside of the rules, but more so it has been more exciting to see the varity of designs and concepts put into play.


The real down fall now. What I think most online sellers now face, is selling kits and parts to 1/2 the pack that will be facing each other !!


So atleast in our neck of the woods, more cars are kit cars, axles, wheels and so on.

Competition is now in a new league of it's own !!


Just to think this is only the beginning or perhaps the ending depending on how packs adapt and change rules to the new options now available to the world !


Hats off !

Sporty

[Teeeman]

The internet is the reason we were able to be competitive and also the reason I turned 15 pages of rules into 31 pages.

And we are still struggling with kit cars.

We have outright outlawed “speed parts” and “complete cars” that aren’t the work of the person entering the car.

We have created new ways to inspect and still last year’s District winner was shrouded in suspicion (it was a Max V kit that was not modified, the dad pretty much said things that lead me to believe he was lying and thus fuels my imagination about the lube, axles and wheels).

The toughest part: The vendors are contributors to the greater good in my opinion with their knowledge and tooling. They offer a range of products as not all competitions follow the same rules. I could never blame a vendor for a car kit or even an eBay seller for offering a complete car.

But anyone who uses any item unethically or illegally is the one committing the wrong in my opinion.

Thus it becomes a really tough job to police for these guys. I love competition and do all I can to foster it… open door policy at our garage, I have sent the links to Stan, Max V and other sources of help to many, many many people!

But at the same time I have had a real challenge in creating firm, complete and enforceable rules for our competitions.

It is an on-going challenge and I don’t see any lesser pressure in the future.

Imagine someday when micro-motors and power supplies can be embedded into the axles… adding just a few thousandths of a HP… but that will be enough to win…

Or some crazy field generator (gravity or thrust) or how about a time displacement generator (a warp nacelle stuck inside the pine body maybe)…


ooooh, gotta run… my favorite shows are about to air on on Sci Fi channel … you know, Pinewood Gordon followed by Stargate Pinelantis…

-T

[tmbnorm]

31 pages of rules?

Wow.

Our rules are not even 1 page.

The basics...
The car must be the work of the boy and gaurdian.
The car must use official BSA parts.
The axles may be polished, but not grooved.
The wheels may be sanded, but not lighted.
You must use the BSA slots.
5.0 oz max.

There are a few other rules, but that is the jist of it.

[Darin McGrew]

Yeah, if anything, we've simplified our rules. There's even room left over on the page to include important dates and times (Saturday workshops, Wednesday weigh-in/registration, and the derby itself).

We don't struggle with kit cars. In part, I think that's because we use non-mainstream kits, but in part, I think that's because workshops are such a key part of our derby season, that everyone has plenty of support for building their own car.

I think the biggest change has been our switch away from a points-based lane-rotation system to a points-based PPN-like system, which happened several years ago. And this year, we're switching from molten lead to molten bismuth at our workshops, but that was based mostly on our own research.

[Teeeman]

Darin,

If I read your rules correctly, a pendulum, so long as securely attached, would be allowed (it is moving but securely attached).

I could heavily lighten a wheel and still not change its shape…

Max length nose to rear axle… I could add another few inches of block behind the rear axle and be legal?

I’m actually doing this tongue in cheek… my only point is if a rule can be “interpreted” someone most assuredly will if they think it buys them an advantage.

Seems if your group abides by the rules with a reasonable understanding of what is and is not allowed, and especially if they don’t have to worry about them by virtue of getting a lot of help from folks during the build season at workshops… they are fine.

I believe our District (full of engineers) had better stick with heavy rules for now. If we used a light set of rules we’d have all kinds of monkey business showing up at the races (as if we don’t still get some of that, hahahah!).

My number 1 complaint on our rules is they are TOO LONG.

They are here (last year’s rev, anyway, but you’ll get the point):

http://www.bsa351.org/p/07_DistPWD_Rev2.pdf


-Terry

[parrot_racing]

The best way we have found to keep the "advantages" to a minimum is to stamp the bottom of each block we hand out with the pack number and scouts individual car number. Even if they were to buy wheels and axles, they still would have to at least assemble the car, and we all know there is no guarantee of anything when it comes to aligning even the best wheels and axles.

[Darin McGrew]

If I read your rules correctly, a pendulum, so long as securely attached, would be allowed (it is moving but securely attached).

Yep.

I could heavily lighten a wheel and still not change its shape…

If you've removed enough plastic that the weight is significant, then you've changed its shape somehow. Changing a 2x4 into a 1x4 is reshaping it.

Max length nose to rear axle… I could add another few inches of block behind the rear axle and be legal?

Yep.

I believe our District (full of engineers) had better stick with heavy rules for now. If we used a light set of rules we’d have all kinds of monkey business showing up at the races (as if we don’t still get some of that, hahahah!).

Yeah, for district races where everyone doesn't know everyone else, you might need to spell some things out.

My number 1 complaint on our rules is they are TOO LONG.

Yeah, our rules do tend to err on the side of KISS. But in many ways, I think that's a good thing. For example, it helps reinforce the idea that the derby car is a simple project for a kid to build with a parent or other trusted adult's supervision and assistance.

[sporty]

I am in support of a kit car, I think that I may have not made that clear.


As long as the child has a part in the car, then I am okay with it.


It is buying the pre-built ready to run cars.


It also appears BSa is okay with kit cars and pre shaped wood. Since they offer through the official sites these items !


I am all for stamp blocks, as long as I could buy like 10 of them ! lol.


Recently when they handed out the blocks to the kids, none were extra to sell.

They have the open race for non scouters, but still same rules. So with no extra kits, they have to go elsewhere.


it is rumored rockford il is out of them and also our local store is out for ateast two to three weeks. which is really cutting it close to the race day.


thank goodness for online order's !


Sporty

[Teeeman]

Yeah, our rules do tend to err on the side of KISS. But in many ways, I think that's a good thing. For example, it helps reinforce the idea that the derby car is a simple project for a kid to build with a parent or other trusted adult's supervision and assistance.

This is how it is supposed to work with Scouting anyway… be able to trust folks!

And let the race remain fun… not make it painfully tough…

I still love the idea of a 1 day “from start to finish” build/race where the boys are given kits from a bag and given 3rd party neutral adult guidance in a garage with tools, etc…

and big honkin’ rope to keep the dads out of the garage

I genuinely hurts my feelings to think that even in Scouts we still have some dads who will do anything to win… thus our nutso-long rules… and tough inspection…

the fact they’ll try it preying on the honesty of everyone else makes me many fold more determined to catch them and bust them.

(ooh, my blood pressure just shot up again)

-Terry

[Teeeman]

We still allow kits but the idea is it must be modified enough from the original supplied kit to be considered original work…

a.k.a. at least try to fool us it is not a kit… that way we know the boy worked on the wood some…

as the goal is to teach the boys some basic wood working skills.


-T

[doct1010]

[
I still love the idea of a 1 day “from start to finish” build/race where the boys are given kits from a bag and given 3rd party neutral adult guidance in a garage with tools, etc…

and big honkin’ rope to keep the dads out of the garage
-Terry

Terry, Now that my son has crossed over this is precisely what the Boys scouts have decided to do. They will compete same day as cubs, in their own seperate race. It took a bit of lobbying on my part, since traditionaly they did not participate in the Derby. My son lamented that fact, and demanded to know why he and the others could not participate in some fashion. Guess it's genetic, he's got some pinewood in his blood.

[Teeeman]

“Pinewood in his blood”


That is a common affliction around this “part of the ‘net” I hear

Good job on getting that race lobbied!

-Terry

[Darin McGrew]

I still love the idea of a 1 day “from start to finish” build/race where the boys are given kits from a bag and given 3rd party neutral adult guidance in a garage with tools, etc…

and big honkin’ rope to keep the dads out of the garage

One of our goals is to encourage father-son interaction, so the "no dads allowed" restriction isn't going to fly.

And frankly, a lot of kids can't deal with that much derby all at once. They do much better if they can work on the car a little at a time, over the course of a few weeks. The one-day format sounds fun for older kids (and adults ), but not for the younger kids.

[doct1010]

Darin,
I agree with your "no Dad" exclusion. Maybe for selfish reasons, but more important as cubs the primary purpose, in my mind, was to promote the parent-child interaction and bond. I guess I can rationalize, with some trepidation, Boys scouts going it alone under the guidance of the Scout Master and patrol leaders. Let you know how it goes on their maiden voyage.

[Teeeman]

Maybe a point of clarification on the “one day build/race” is needed: This would be a different race in addition to the usual Pack race.

I would still think so long as you compete by age groups this would work. To me any Tiger can still take the parts out of the box and stick them together and thus build a runnable car. Every kid should be able to get into the race.

And, it is a Derby… which is a race.

Not an art competition.

So looks, etc. shouldn’t even matter (read that no painting)… which I know is a large part of most Derbies…

well, I defer to the term Derby being a synonym for “race” again.

I would hope it would be a reflection of how many boys had already had their dads spend time with them.

I worry that typical Derbies tend to sometimes be a reflection of which dad can build the best car for his son (or worse, which dad can buy his son the best car off of eBay).


-Terry