Interesting debate

[ExtremePWD]

Interestingly, I hide neither my equipment nor my willingness to share. Each year a few ... a very few ... find their way to my basement shop.
.............. But you gotta find 'em and ask 'em!

By the way, BL, drop on by! I don't "keep pinewood derby" secrets very well.

Hey, Stan! My son has a big race this weekend and there is this scout named Alex that is probably going to show up with another hot car. Mind if we come over and run some wheels across the lathe?

[nodakindy]

I am a true novice to PWD. As being new I have been reading a good bit about how to build a fast car. It seems to me that the boys that win are children of obsessive parents/fathers - no offense meant - nothing wrong with being a bit obsessive - I kinda resemble that myself. Ok... so here is the question. Quite a few years ago, my oldest son and I did the PWD race. We used the BSA block - "I" was lucky enough to have access to a band saw to cut the basic shape - "I" was lucky enough to have a few power sanding tools to do the final sanding. "I" was uneducated enough to know nothing about filing axels, smoothing wheels, how to place the weights, ect... and my 5 year old son knew even less about the physics of racing. So essentially... I cut the wood and he painted the car then I put on the wheels. We LOST big time.

I know everyone wants to "win" but I would like to suggest that your experience together was your trophy in this case for your first year. I would also like to suggest that it may even have provided you with motivation to learn and improve for the next year. Also, not to sound all sentimental here but as a Cub Scout I never had the benefit of my father's presence for anything I did. My father wasn't a bad guy mind you, but he saw these sorts of activities as "kid stuff" and just didn't see the point of it all. In spite of this I learned many other helpful things from my father that he thought were important, but it would have been nice for him to hold the same value for things I thought were important. I was blessed with an amazing daughter, so scouting wasn't something we did, but I always made sure to be involved in things she found important.

Funny how life turns out though as my daughter had twins boys who are each involved in scouts now, and she is a leader as well. This is my second year of helping them and I enjoy seeing them learn and evolve immensely.

I try to the best of my ability to explain and teach them what I have learned in several routine racing meetings the three of us had many weeks prior to getting little pinewood boxes from their pack and they use this to help in making there choices in car designs etc. We worked on them all together as a team, each of us with a car to work on, me using mine to demonstrate what to do and then having each of them do the same. At 7 I can't turn them totally loose with power tools, but they each did have their first experience with my help and guiding hand at times. All in all it was an enjoyable experience.

Personally I like the experience of helping them create something from their blocks of wood, but can certainly appreciate the need for some kids to use other options such as the kits you used. Lets face it, there is still much to be done once the wood is cut irregardless of who cuts it.

I can't say that I agree with buying premade finished cars unless they were competing against simular cars. I just think it violates the spirit and reason for the Pinewood Derby. They will have plenty of other opportunities to work and earn things on a monetary basis. I just don't think that is what the Pinewood Derby is about.

Glad to hear you had a good experience and result for your efforts.

Regards,
Nodakindy

[dna1990]

Four weeks of talking, reading, looking, designing, cutting, sanding, painting, polishing.

Two point seven seconds of racing.

I know where we get our biggest bang for the buck, and it aint hanging off a hook at Hobby Lobby.

Keep the smell of sawdust in the derby.

[teachable]

Actually, insinuating that some one is “vain” and using “excuses” is judgmental. Vain Excuse I am not sure how to respond to your post Nicholas. Your interpretation of the situation is quite wrong. As a father of three and husband of a wife with a handicap – time is quite a premium. 6-8 hours of assembly, painting, and decorating is a great deal of bonding time. Seeing a raw kit become a “work of his art” is a great lesson. Sacrificing his hard earned allowance for the $12.00 kit is not a bad decision for a 6 year old –. As for vanity – the finished product was his work! Regarding your approach: I don’t judge you. It is great that you had the time to run down a bandsaw and cut the three pieces for your son so he could realize his vision. (One might consider this vain – why not let him struggle with age appropriate wood working tools to “do what he could”). However, the result is quite similar. You essentially handed him the same thing that someone would get in a kit – granted I am sure there was a bit more shaping needed. The approach is a bit different but the result is very similar. Note that even though a kit was used we still used the BSA axles and wheels out of the single kit that he recieved - not wheels that were lot matched or otherwise altered other then polished with pumas. Honestly, I would prefer your method. My son’s grandfather has a bandsaw but he lives quite a ways away and the trip could not be made while trying to keep the day to day operations of the family going. None the less - you may read into what I posted what you would like. I am by no means a perfect father but, as we all do, I balance the needs of my family, try to instill good values (Not vanity) and teach my children NOT to employ excuses. If you have the desire – find a way to make it work with the resources you have. In that spirit, my son has already begun to plan his car for next year. It will not be a kit. Nor will it be a wedge. I am considering avoiding the whole aspect of wood working. I am planning to make a car similar to the wedge. Just going to use my table saw and a jig saw. He is going to buy some light weight paintable modeling clay and mold his car out of that. We will figure out a way to securely attach it. The result will be 100% his and the medium will be one that will allow his imagination to be unimpaired. I am considering buying prepolished BSA axles and lot matched wheels (if they are allowed) though. I do not have access to a lathe.

The lesson here is not to judge people who are trying to do the right thing.

Just an observation: Honestly, the PWD exercise seems to have just as much – if not more - dad pride on the line then kid pride. Try this exercise - Do a bit of research on PWD. Read the posts on how build a car. 90% - 95% of the posts are discussions regarding issues a 6 year old child could not comprehend much less carry out. Check out the thread several lines down titled “How deep are you in” http://derbytalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=3211. Perhaps it is for the kids, but the fathers of the children on that post have a tremendous advantage over the average mom or dad trying to help their kids have fun and learn good sportsmanship. Read the post just above this... do you think a 6 year old wrote that?

PS. I am grateful for this wonderful site and all here who are so giving with their time and knowledge. Stan, you really seem to live the scouting life. Well done! Out of curiosity, what does one do with 10 almost identical car bodies, and gobs of lathed wheels? Do you race these all yourself? Do you give them to the kids?

Lastly, regarding the performance of my son's car -- It won First in the den and third in the pack. The two cars that beat him both had altered wheels. Photography is my hobby and I have several nice images showing the modifications. The wheels are clearly sanded with a crown in the middle. It is very obvious from the track debris on the wheels. No big deal though and I have said nothing to nobody regarding the modifications nor to I plan to teach my son that cheating is the way to win. Actually I did not mention the modifications to him. Better for him to think PWD is a fair and fun event.

[psycaz]

Teachable,
In the end, the only person you need to worry about is YOU!!!

You are the only one who understands your life's particular situations.

You are the only one who has to be happy with the decisions you make.

You are the only one who knows the life's lessons you want to teach and relay to your son.

If you are happy with the decisions you have and are making, then be damned what anyone else thinks.

Your the only one who knows what the rules are and how tight they are followed.

Enjoy the time you can spend with your son. That is the most important thing.

[parrot_racing]

Thats a good point, if the scout isn't going to be cutting the wood, but daddy is going to run it over to the shop to cut it, sounds like the same thing to me.

[BlackLotus]

Thats a good point, if the scout isn't going to be cutting the wood, but daddy is going to run it over to the shop to cut it, sounds like the same thing to me.

I think this kind of depends on how the cutting is done.

Boy dreams up design, transfers it to car, and father/son team take block of marked up wood to bandsaw buddy for rough cutting, then watch the cutting and discuss the process.

This is, in my humble opinion, far more valuable than the precut car. Now, "Here's your machined block and some 400 grit paper son, I'll call you in from the garage when dinner is ready." Is, of course, the other extreme.

[pack529holycross]

Actually, insinuating that some one is “vain” and using “excuses” is judgmental. Vain Excuse I am not sure how to respond to your post Nicholas. Your interpretation of the situation is quite wrong. As a father of three and husband of a wife with a handicap – time is quite a premium. 6-8 hours of assembly, painting, and decorating is a great deal of bonding time. Seeing a raw kit become a “work of his art” is a great lesson. Sacrificing his hard earned allowance for the $12.00 kit is not a bad decision for a 6 year old –. As for vanity – the finished product was his work! Regarding your approach: I don’t judge you. It is great that you had the time to run down a bandsaw and cut the three pieces for your son so he could realize his vision. (One might consider this vain – why not let him struggle with age appropriate wood working tools to “do what he could”). However, the result is quite similar. You essentially handed him the same thing that someone would get in a kit – granted I am sure there was a bit more shaping needed. The approach is a bit different but the result is very similar. Note that even though a kit was used we still used the BSA axles and wheels out of the single kit that he recieved - not wheels that were lot matched or otherwise altered other then polished with pumas. Honestly, I would prefer your method. My son’s grandfather has a bandsaw but he lives quite a ways away and the trip could not be made while trying to keep the day to day operations of the family going. None the less - you may read into what I posted what you would like. I am by no means a perfect father but, as we all do, I balance the needs of my family, try to instill good values (Not vanity) and teach my children NOT to employ excuses. If you have the desire – find a way to make it work with the resources you have. In that spirit, my son has already begun to plan his car for next year. It will not be a kit. Nor will it be a wedge. I am considering avoiding the whole aspect of wood working. I am planning to make a car similar to the wedge. Just going to use my table saw and a jig saw. He is going to buy some light weight paintable modeling clay and mold his car out of that. We will figure out a way to securely attach it. The result will be 100% his and the medium will be one that will allow his imagination to be unimpaired. I am considering buying prepolished BSA axles and lot matched wheels (if they are allowed) though. I do not have access to a lathe.

The lesson here is not to judge people who are trying to do the right thing.

Just an observation: Honestly, the PWD exercise seems to have just as much – if not more - dad pride on the line then kid pride. Try this exercise - Do a bit of research on PWD. Read the posts on how build a car. 90% - 95% of the posts are discussions regarding issues a 6 year old child could not comprehend much less carry out. Check out the thread several lines down titled “How deep are you in” http://derbytalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=3211. Perhaps it is for the kids, but the fathers of the children on that post have a tremendous advantage over the average mom or dad trying to help their kids have fun and learn good sportsmanship. Read the post just above this... do you think a 6 year old wrote that?

PS. I am grateful for this wonderful site and all here who are so giving with their time and knowledge. Stan, you really seem to live the scouting life. Well done! Out of curiosity, what does one do with 10 almost identical car bodies, and gobs of lathed wheels? Do you race these all yourself? Do you give them to the kids?

Lastly, regarding the performance of my son's car -- It won First in the den and third in the pack. The two cars that beat him both had altered wheels. Photography is my hobby and I have several nice images showing the modifications. The wheels are clearly sanded with a crown in the middle. It is very obvious from the track debris on the wheels. No big deal though and I have said nothing to nobody regarding the modifications nor to I plan to teach my son that cheating is the way to win. Actually I did not mention the modifications to him. Better for him to think PWD is a fair and fun event.

First, I am certain that you have confused ciriticism of your ACTIONS with criticisms of YOU. I am not judging you.. I am responding to YOUR request to solicit opinions of your actions.

Secondly, bringing up your wife in a wheelchair is, respectfully, not relevant to this discussion. In addition to running my own appraisal business out of the house, incorporating watching my 4 year old to not have to pay for day care, I watch BOTH my boys after the 9year old scout comes home from school, participate in 3 radio shows for local radio, AND volunteered to be the Pack Committee Chairman as well as spearheading the purchase and construction of a 6lane bestrack beyond the regular derby preparations. I also installed and tweaked all of the software for the race, functioned as the scorer/soundeffects/av projector/and had to build the crates necessary to store and transport the track. Oh, by the way, I also had to build three cars for the event. Guess what I DIDNT do... I didn't shortcut the process and rob my kids of the experience of BUILDING something.... I didn't try to save time... and I didn't try to front "reasons" why the process was going to be different for us and why we had the right to take a shortcut.

My son picked just about the most complicated design choice - full bodied - and although we could have done MUCH better with more time, what we did won "best design" even though he performed poorly in the races... He won a trophy and is VERY proud of our efforts.

I would say that doing the right thing means teaching the purpose of Pinewood... I believe that you have missed the point of the exercise. the point is to build a car. If everyone starts with a raw woodblock ( thats the baseline concept I spoke of ), then the journey begins in the same place, and travels in a hundred different directions.... and the results show the variety of approaches and techniques. This would be a rough outline of the process:

DESIGN (mental)
DESIGN (mockup)
DESIGN (apply rough outlines)
CONSTRUCTION (roughcuts)
CONSTRUCTION (shaping)
CONSTRUCTION (final sanding - paint prep)
FINISHING ( Paintprep and painting )
FINAL FINISHING (details)

NONE of the previous steps, with the exception of determining weight locations into the design, have nearly the impact on performance as prepping wheels and axles, and alignment of said components.

( I think we all would agree that if you took a raw block of wood, cut the top half off, added weights and spent 2 weeks on alignment, wheel prep, and axle prep, it would completely destroy the 40 layers of clearcoat, dupont paint exercise, photo realistic 50's cruiser with stock bsa wheels and axles with no prep )

I believe both the intent and the spirit of the Derby is to allow the kids to experience as MUCH as this FIRST half of the creation process as possible. I doubt that anyone here would disagree that NOT allowing a child to operate a band saw does NOT violate the spirit or intent of the Derby, as the child is essentially directing the use of that tool through his design choices. In the instance of a premade kit, the only thing that the adult is exercising at the direction of his child is his wallet. I agree that finding a store that sells premade kits is EASIER - but I believe that Pinewood is not about finding the easiest way to accomplish this task. I also believe that SKIPPING steps when possible is absolutely the WRONG message to send to a boy that is learning how to be indenpendent, self reliant, and resourceful.

To give an extreme example, if presented with an obstacle that includes a 2 mile hike, the second boy would just save up his money and pay for a cab to skip the hike. Let that sink in.

The bottom line is this - a pinewood derby ( at least my derby ) has racing amongst cars that pass inspection for sanctioned, BSA-approved cars in the running for trophies within the SAME baseline and design restrictions. They ALSO have open class racing for those cars that do NOT meet the requirements. IF you feel so very strongly about using pre-made car kits, then you should ALSO feel JUST as strongly about NOT allowing your child to compete in a class of racing that excludes cars that skipped that part of the process... let him race in Open class and compete for design awards - oops... it is likely that his car is completely out of the running for a design award because he didn't design it nor did he construct it. Best Paint is possibly the only award he might be considered for, if the judges overlook the pre-made kit aspect of the entry.

Lastly, my comments on vanity are still spot on, because I have never seen a kid embarrassed by a car that looks like it was thrown down a flight of stairs, if HE was the one doing the throwing. IF your child said - " I want my car to look like that " then what you COULD have done is to say " we will need certain tools to do that type of design. If we cannot find someone to help us, then you should save your money to buy the TOOLS needed over time and build the car for next year. " THAT would be completely within the spirit of WHY the derby was created in the first place, my friend....


AS far as not having time to devote to the process... Let me help you:

Go to Google
Type in "woodworking,guild,(yourstate)"
Hit ENTER

There are all of the resources you need, within minutes of your home, and all likely to be free..


OPTION #2 - er.... are you in a Pack of one? Part of Scouting is to bring together the sense of "community" that is constantly eroding in this country. Perhaps you could organize a list of the fathers within your unit who have all the tools necessary, and organize Derby Parties.... Perhaps a part of other parents angst is that you NEVER GAVE THEM A CHANCE to be part of your process - Ill bet there is at least ONE resource-rich parent who would have been more than willing to assist with the construction of the car. COMPLETELY within the spirit and certainly spot-on with the intent of the derby.


Nicholas

[OneHour]

I can equate this to life itself. I elected to be the best that I could and through my quest, I learned the best there is, the pitfalls/traps, and how to be successful. I then use this to mold and shape my sons so that they can be successful in life as well. If I found a technique to study and make good grades in school, you betcha that I will pass that on. Am I going to study with my sons for tests? You bet ya. Am I going to take the test for them? Heck no. Take my oldest for example, during preschool, we teach them everything by handholding and doing pretty much a lot of the things to show him how. Little by little, he did everything himself. Now at 15, he does everything himself and all that we do is to spot check. Are we cheating? You betcha! We could have let him learn to do everything since pre-school and do not worry about a thing! My wife and I teach my sons to live right and do the right things. I don't think that I am cheating by spending moneys to send my sons to an SAT prep class so that he can do well on his SAT, am I?

Pinewood Derby and the likes are no difference! I and others on the board learn something that we do not know, including the Physics. I then translate that to the level that my 8 years old can understand and work with. Buying tools and using the tools are the ways that I can teach him skills that he doesn't him have. Learning to make the car go faster together by learning from the best ... why not? This is the part of the human psyche that is eroding away. I have seen so many kids who are brought up in a non-competitive environment. All that they want to do is to do enough to get by. Down here in our neck of the wood, they have a soccer league that does not count score. Parents cannot cheer and have to placate everything. I am not promoting "win at all cause." I participate on this board to learn and then I pass it on to my sons and the Pack or anyone who wants to do better. I offer my tools and hold workshop as others on the board have done. This is not cheating. To date, no one in our Pack accuse us of cheating, because everyone of them has the same chance to work hard on their cars.

My sons, during Tiger year, they built 60% of their cars. During Wolf year, it became 70%. During Bear year, 80% of the work is theirs and during Webelos, it's 90% (I reserve the only rights to cut the block since their digits are more valuable than any stinking car!).

teachable, I have been in your shoes, having no clues as to how to build a car during my oldest son's Tiger year. What we thought was pretty cool and pretty fast turned out to be his worst experience. The 2.5 oz car did not even make it 1/2 way down the track before it died! Since then, I vowed that no cars in our Pack will suffer the same fate! I share all knowledge and tools. There are only two secrets that I leave up to the father/son team, hard work and luck.

Stan and his co-horts are doing what I do to our Pack. They could have just kept it to themselves, but instead they share their knowledge for all who want to learn. They, too, left the final two secrets to us all! How we teach this knowledge to our kids ... that's our task.

As for those who go out there and buy the completed car, the speed wheels, the speed axles. etc., to me that's their perogatives. Cheating? That's one point-of-view of whether or not the glass is half emptied or half full. Did they somehow manipulate the time on their sons' lane? Did they somehow paid the starter to let their sons' cars start out first? All that they did is to be resourceful enough to spend moneys that some of us don't have to be successful. They race on the same track as everyone else. They use the same gravity as everyone else. All that they did was to pay someone else to do the work. Now, having said that (and by the way, I don't condone prefab parts and cars), they go totally against the ideals of what Don Murphy wanted as the result of Pinewood Derby, a time where a father/mother can spend with his/her son!

teachable, I understand your pov completely!

-L

... now ... getting off this soapbox.

[gpraceman]

Guys,

It's OK to disagree, but it can be done without getting personal. It does seem like some comments are getting way too personal.

My philosophy has always been that you stick to the rules. If the rules are vague or don't address areas of concern, then it is the responsibility of the organization putting on the race to address that. If people don't have access to basic tools and knowledge to build a car, then it is that organization's responsibility to provide workshops. Many organizations fail in one or the other of these or both (and then wonder why people get heartburn about the race).

Should pre-cuts, lathed wheels, speed axles, completed cars, etc. be against the rules? That is up to the organization putting on the race. If we are talking BSA, then the rules should be based off of Don Murphy's original intentions for doing this type of race. Many of the commercially bought parts, kits or even completed cars do go against that intention and against the principles of scouting.

The rules should rule. There should be a good set of rules for all racers to comply with and each of the race teams (kids and their adult partner) should comply with them to their best understanding. Of course, if there is a question on rules, it should be brought up for clarification.

And one last comment. In the end, the kid should be able to know that they did their best. Not that Dad (or other adult) did his best or that someone making commercial parts did their best, but that the kid himself/herself did their best. Too often the adults get in the way of that instead of helping towards that end.

[Go Bubba Go]

Well said, Randy, on all counts.

Bubba

[frontosacam311]

There is a guy at my church who can build cars that would blow your mind, he taught his kids everything he knows and now his kids (5 and can carve cars better than most adults I know! Truly amazing what these little boys are capable of, just imagine 10 years how skilled they will be.

[Darin McGrew]

There is a guy at my church who can build cars that would blow your mind, he taught his kids everything he knows and now his kids (5 and can carve cars better than most adults I know! Truly amazing what these little boys are capable of, just imagine 10 years how skilled they will be.

Yep. We had a family like that. The boys knew their way around Dad's workshop and tended to be a bit bored with the simple woodworking projects we did in club. During derby season, the boys built beautiful cars that were very fast. And yes, I overheard some comments about who "really built" the cars.

One year, Dad built a car for the All Comers race. That car was a work of art. I wish I had been taking photos of cars back then...

[emptyd]

<everything he said>

Here, here! I agree completely! We also spend a large amount of time on workshops compared to the derby itself - a ratio of 4:1. We advertise it, we offer help, tools, supervision, tips...

And we also have very low attendance compared to the total entry count.

Kids can do amazing things if we help them - and much of the time that includes getting (mostly) out of their way.

Lack of tools, know-how, experience is no excuse at all for a poorly performing car. It is more frequently an excuse used by parents to ease their guilt over not investing in something their kid was really interested in.

[gpraceman]

Lack of tools, know-how, experience is no excuse at all for a poorly performing car. It is more frequently an excuse used by parents to ease their guilt over not investing in something their kid was really interested in.

To a point I agree with you. However, I have heard of far too many races where no workshops are offered at all. Those without access to basic tools or to the knowledge on how to build a competitive car are left to fend for themselves. I really feel that is a failure of leadership on the part of the organization putting on the race.