To have or not to have: district level PWD championships

[SteveJahr]

I may be asking the right question in the wrong place here... I suspect this might be a slightly biased audience

We do not have a District level PWD race. I am considering if I should try and start one or not and am looking for input on pros and cons. I can see a championship race kicking PWD up a notch, and this could be a good thing. But I can also see a championship race pushing the competitiveness over the top into excessiveness and that could be a bad thing.

What have your experiences been on this?

Another dimension to this is how entrants are chosen:

• There is the obvious take the top n finishers from each Pack. This could exagerrate the competition factors throughout PWD.
  Entry could be voluntary and open to all interested. This provides for higher competition to those who desire without putting everybody into the higher standard.

I have always placed a significant value on creative designs and quality craftsmanship in PWD. Are these values part of your championship level event?

[TDean]

Steve wrote:

I can see a championship race kicking PWD up a notch, and this could be a good thing. But I can also see a championship race pushing the competitiveness over the top into excessiveness and that could be a bad thing.

From my perspective -- we've had District races, featuring the Top 3 from each Pack, for many years -- and I cannot see that it has influenced the level of competitiveness in any way. (That could be because our District races are rather simple affairs and the grandiose events that other districts host). But we've yet to see one rail car or any particularly competetive car built in our Pack. So, I'd definitely say -- GO FOR IT!

I have always placed a significant value on creative designs and quality craftsmanship in PWD. Are these values part of your championship level event?

As you have seen from my examples -- I value creative designs and quality craftsmanship very highly, and I encourage the boys to "think outside the block" when designing their cars -- but I recognize that we are dealing with 6 to 11 year old boys here, so I don't want to push them too hard into thinking they must create rolling perfection -- just that they DO THEIR BEST. But back to your question -- our District event does NOT include Best in Show or any form of design/creativity award -- yet!

[TurtlePowered]

I say go for it! If nothing else it will give scouts from different packs a chance to mingle.

[Darin McGrew]

In the SF bay area, CSB holds a regional derby every couple of years. Our church has never emphasized it, although we have let people know about it when its schedule fit reasonably well with our own derby. We didn't change our rules match the regional derby's rules, although we did point out places where the regional derby's rules were more restrictive than ours (e.g., height, width, and length limits).

The big difference I noticed at the regional derby is that everything has to be a lot more formal and a lot more explicit. You can't keep an eye out during the workshops for designs that will cause problems, and rules need to be much more precise to avoid arguments. And be prepared for the "but they let us race it like that in our local derby" argument.

Entry could be voluntary and open to all interested. This provides for higher competition to those who desire without putting everybody into the higher standard.

That's how our regional derbies are run. That also allows small units to use the regional derby as their main derby event, so they don't have to borrow a track and set it up for a handful of kids.

I have always placed a significant value on creative designs and quality craftsmanship in PWD. Are these values part of your championship level event?

For some, yes. Most folks seemed more interested in speed, rather than design, even though as many design trophies were given as speed trophies. But that's nothing new.

The lack of preregistration means that the design judging has to happen during the derby. It's a bit chaotic that way. And the simple 1st through 10th place system tends to reward unusual designs more than automotive designs.

[Stan Pope]

I think that PWD as a pack event is, in most cases, a positive program element. If the pack event is used to qualify racers to the district event, then the district event can give purpose and energy to the pack event.

Taking only the top three racers from the pack, I think, hurts the pack event by making it too hard to qualify and causing many to quit before they start. It may, also, make the district event too small to be a "significant service to the district." (I think that all district events should be structured to server a significant percentage of the district's membership.)

If the district races were open to all who wish to race, then the race would do little to help energize the pack races or to even encourage holding pack races. A surprizing result is that those district and council races which are open to all who wish to participate tend to have signicantly lower participation rates than those whe require qualifying in the pack races.

In between these extremes of being highly selective and not being selective at all, there is a good middle ground that produces a substantial participation rate and strongly energizes pack racing.

So, how many racers should a district event be able to serve? If you have 300 to 600 racers racing against each other, it is pretty hard to give each of them a good number of races in a reasonable amount of time. There needs to be some way to divide the participants into groups. Division by age group or school grade is easy and logical.

How many of each to invite from each pack? Three to five from each age group in each pack should produce the highest percentage of participation. It also makes an achievable target for most boys in the pack.

Fewer youngsters get really excited about "show" events... not enough "action", maybe. Enough do get excited about it that it makes sense to have the competition. In addition to their own competition, these youngsters can absorb the excitement of racing and cheer for their buddies.

We allow anyone who wants to participate to enter the "Race Car Design" and "Unusual Design" events. Younsters in design events are also competing against others in their age group. Our participation has been low in those events. I wonder if we should try making entry to one of those events competitive to see if that would help that participation. Hmmm.

[SteveJahr]

I think that PWD as a pack event is, in most cases, a positive program element. If the pack event is used to qualify racers to the district event, then the district event can give purpose and energy to the pack event. ...

Good points.

...We allow anyone who wants to participate to enter the "Race Car Design" and "Unusual Design" events. Younsters in design events are also competing against others in their age group. Our participation has been low in those events. I wonder if we should try making entry to one of those events competitive to see if that would help that participation. Hmmm.

I went through a couple of derivations of that latter paragraph in my question. First I though to ask how to incorporate design but then I thought "why should it be any different than race?". I would propose to use the same selection process for design/craftsmanship as for the racers: take the top N from each pack.

This is sounding like something I should check into a bit more. So at the potential risk of hijacking my own thread

I could see some interesting PR possibilities that could be tied into a District PWD championship. This may be a poor example, but the races could be held in some very public place like a shopping mall on a weekend. This would provide positive exposure for Cub Scouting. It could also just be a real zoo

Another parameter of interest is the number of races per racer. I have been using the average time across one pass at each lane to determine winners. Since I have a 3 lane track this means each racer gets 3 official races that count. They get other races on alternate "practice" tracks or after hours on the main track. This has worked pretty well for a Pack-level event but do I need to step up to something more sophosticated for a District-level event?

[Stan Pope]

I went through a couple of derivations of that latter paragraph in my question. First I though to ask how to incorporate design but then I thought "why should it be any different than race?". I would propose to use the same selection process for design/craftsmanship as for the racers: take the top N from each pack.

You can get more participation by accepting the top N from each grade in each pack.

I could see some interesting PR possibilities that could be tied into a District PWD championship. This may be a poor example, but the races could be held in some very public place like a shopping mall on a weekend. This would provide positive exposure for Cub Scouting. It could also just be a real zoo

Saturday at the Shopping Mall is a favorite! For some malls, PWD day is the peak traffic day of the year, and the Mall management may provide floor space AND kick in some $ for the trophies. You may be able to combine it with a mini-Scout Show ... Troop displays for the public AND for the assembled Cub Scouts and families.

The down-side of the Mall location is that with all the parents crowded around the track, there is little opportunity for "the public" to get much of the flavor of the racing. It is usually not a very spectator friendly environment.

Another parameter of interest is the number of races per racer. I have been using the average time across one pass at each lane to determine winners. Since I have a 3 lane track this means each racer gets 3 official races that count. They get other races on alternate "practice" tracks or after hours on the main track. This has worked pretty well for a Pack-level event but do I need to step up to something more sophosticated for a District-level event?

Depends a lot on how you organize and what folks expectations are. Our families over the years were conditioned to about an hour inspection period plus 2-1/2 to 3 hours of racing. We have tried to stay with those parameters. A few years ago, we changed the format from the traditional charted double elimination in favor of no-chart quintuple elimination and maintain approximately the same duration. The no-chart approach is very friendly to walk-in registrants and to late arrivals. You could also structure is as a timed race with a set number of runs. You could even do both! Traditional head-to-head racing plus a turn at the timed track for "Fastest Run of the Day" or "Turtle of the Year" trophies. Elimination Racing would release a flow of racers to head off to the timed track and, hopefully, prevent long lines there.

[Cory]

What have your experiences been on this?

I have always placed a significant value on creative designs and quality craftsmanship in PWD. Are these values part of your championship level event?

We've always had a District derby since I've been involved. Originally, our District had about 70 Packs, they took one boy per Rank from each Pack, for a total of 4 boys.

In 1999, they split us into 4 separate Districts, ours having about 20 Packs. At that time they started taking 2 boys per Rank from each Pack, and they added in the Tigers for a total of 10 boys per Pack.

We could send more, I think, if more people were interested in helping run things. However, finding someone to run it has rarely been easy.

I've never organized the thing, but I've watched with interest as other people have. I believe it's more difficult than running a Pack derby. As far as I can tell, communication is the biggest problem. Even if you connect with all the right POC's from each Pack, you don't know that they are following up the way they should. I'd be inclined to go after an email address for EVERY boy that was entered, and create a big mailing list.

In our case, I wouldn't really say that the District event energizes our Pack event, maybe it does but the effect is minor. On the other hand, the District event is very positive in and of itself, definitely worth having.

Our District event has never had a design or craftsmanship division, btw.

[Derby Wizard]

Assuming that you get this idea 'passed', keep in mind that all the packs will need to conform by a standard set of rules or you will run into some big issues. Some packs may be allowing extended wheel base cars...others may not...

Once you have sold the idea the real work begins. Make the first event great and they'll want to come back. Good luck.

[Stan Pope]

Assuming that you get this idea 'passed', keep in mind that all the packs will need to conform by a standard set of rules or you will run into some big issues. Some packs may be allowing extended wheel base cars...others may not...

Once you have sold the idea the real work begins. Make the first event great and they'll want to come back. Good luck.

NOW is the time to get the ball rolling for the 2005 schedule! Many councils have a few hoops that have to be jumped through in order to hold an event involving multiple packs, so gather some samples of how others are organized and chat with your district's Cub Scout Program Chairman (this is the committee person who is usually responsible for PWD.) Or ask the District Executive who on the commitee would have responsibility.

[SteveJahr]

Assuming that you get this idea 'passed', keep in mind that all the packs will need to conform by a standard set of rules or you will run into some big issues. Some packs may be allowing extended wheel base cars...others may not...

Once you have sold the idea the real work begins. Make the first event great and they'll want to come back. Good luck.

NOW is the time to get the ball rolling for the 2005 schedule! Many councils have a few hoops that have to be jumped through in order to hold an event involving multiple packs, so gather some samples of how others are organized and chat with your district's Cub Scout Program Chairman (this is the committee person who is usually responsible for PWD.) Or ask the District Executive who on the commitee would have responsibility.

Yep Stan, that is what I have been thinking and why I was asking the question here and now. I discussed it briefly with the District Exec Tuesday night and was referred to the District Committee. Just what I need, another meeting to go to Oh well, at least it is for a good cause.

So, in gathering mode, do any of you have timelines used for a district level event?

[Stan Pope]

Yep Stan, that is what I have been thinking and why I was asking the question here and now. I discussed it briefly with the District Exec Tuesday night and was referred to the District Committee. Just what I need, another meeting to go to Oh well, at least it is for a good cause.

So, in gathering mode, do any of you have timelines used for a district level event?

You need a more specific referral ... to the chairman of the district committee responsible for Cub Scout Program! That person probably has a good grasp on what it would take to make it happen, and would be an indispensible supporter. That person would also probably know of any "history" that might have to be dealt with.

The planning cycle for most district and council events is 9 months (according to training that I got at the Philmont Training Center a few years ago.) Add to this the usual annual calendar preparation that may need council board approval.

[Sssnake]

We have always held our districts in a local mall. Our district is rather large and the event usually lasts from 9:00 am to 5:00 pm by the time the overall champions are determined. This draws a significant number of spectators from the packs, but also a large number of curious onlookers. The crowds enthusiam always adds to the excitement for the boys as they race. If I had to venture a guess I would say there are probably 500 entrants, running on three tracks. The tracks and stats are maintained by the district boy scout troops, who also provide camping and skill demonstrations during the races. All in all the districts are looked forward to and enjoyed by the large majority of boys, we send the top 3 in design and race from each den. . . As I ramble on, my point is the districts add a lot to the pack competitions as an ultimate goal. Sorry for so long a post.

[SteveJahr]

You need a more specific referral ... to the chairman of the district committee responsible for Cub Scout Program! That person probably has a good grasp on what it would take to make it happen, and would be an indispensible supporter. That person would also probably know of any "history" that might have to be dealt with.

Thanks for the input Stan, that would be nice... but they say that people in hell want ice water too. I do not think there is anybody with that official title. Nor do I see any district level ownership of program. They have a number of events/activities that are "traditional" every year like FOS, food for scouts, cub scout twilight camp, training, etc. And the district chair recruits someone to chair each event. Aside from that, the packs are left to their own for program. It may be influenced by my council trying to recover from loss of UW funding and my district having been split a couple of years ago. Perhaps also by the shallow pool of dedicated volunteers.

Enough whining or whatever... I have interpreted the referral I got as pointing to the district chairman, so that is where I will go. I expect that I am going where no one has gone before, at least around here, so I have another type of history to deal with. Should be an interesting adventure and I *will* count on *your* indispensible support

[Stan Pope]

I have interpreted the referral I got as pointing to the district chairman, so that is where I will go. I expect that I am going where no one has gone before, at least around here, so I have another type of history to deal with. Should be an interesting adventure and I *will* count on *your* indispensible support

Sounds like a plan! Also sounds like your district is in what the Chicago Cubs call a "rebuilding year."

Feel free to ask questions either on the forum or directly.

And, good luck.