Rules....

[murphken]

There is so much good, practical discussion on this forum. As a dad, den leader, and chair of our pack's PWD efforts, we are especially conscious of the rules. We let the district rules dictate our pack rules. This allows the scouts to prepare for both races, even though we run on different types of tracks (center vs. edge).

We have learned a wealth of knowledge about the true meaning of PWD racing from this forum. First and foremost, it is about getting the scout to build his car with the support of dad and and the den leader/ PWD Pack chair (me too). Second, we have learned a wealth of knowledge on the art, physics, and mechanics of making these cars look and perform at their very best and within the Scout's ability. I have taught the Cub Scouts and Dads much of the ideology that has been shared in this forum in the den meetings and the numerous workshops that we completed this year.

Which leads me to this post.... Our district rules are written in a very general fashion. I have chatted with the district PWD representative, in general, on what is and is not allowed. The reply was "If you go by the district rules and and rules in the PWD box, there should not be a problem".

We don't want to break the rules with the way we design and build the cars in our pack. I think it is better to have strict rules than general rules. Too much ambiguity for those who understand and apply these techniques.

Any thoughts on this? Has anybody run into a situation (at district) where their pack's cars were questioned for a particular design even though it was not addressed in the rules? If so, how did you address the situation?

Common example: Our rules say nothing about extending the wheelbase, lifting a wheel, or canting the axles. All these designs are within a Cub's ability to complete. If a certain design is not addressed in the rules, is it legal? Note: our district race is coming up on the 27.

[Darin McGrew]

Ultimately, nothing we say matters. What matters is how the rules are interpreted by the people running your district derby.

With that said, if the rules don't require you to do something (e.g., "All 4 wheels must touch") or prohibit you from doing something (e.g., "You cannot raise a wheel so that it doesn't touch"), then I think the technique should be allowed. Still, I hear people ask "can you do that?" every year: extended wheelbase, paint on the wheels, raised front wheel, etc. But those in charge of derbies have been known to add new unwritten restrictions at the last minute. Communicate with the people running the derby to avoid issues.

Personally, I think it is unreasonable to prohibit raised wheels or canted axles, because kids should be able to "just build the car" without worrying about violating rules like that. If a kid mounts the wheels and axles, then they will almost certainly violate any "four on the floor" or "no canted axles" rules. But I am not in charge of your district derby.

[AlabamaDan]

First, I believe all your rules should be to level the playing ground and encourage the boys to "build" the entire call and "do" all the work they can together with their dad, with the dad doing most of the supervision.

There are some things that I think are more ok for a dad to do that others. For example, I hold my hands over my son's hands when we cut. I help him hold the car still while the holes are drilled, but he's getting better at that. He does all the axle work, I just secure the nail in the drill. He does all the wheel work. I usually help him paint and perhaps do alot of the painting because he wants it to look good. I feel it's ok for me to do the spraying if he wants, as long as he's there by my side and having me paint it doesn't give him an advantage in any way.

I feel that extending the wheelbase, lifting a wheel, polishing the axle or canting the wheels is all things that a cub can do and anyone can do. It's not like he's buying stuff all the internet and putting it on. If the cub is doing that with his dad's instruction then he's learning and isn't that the key? I don't have a problem with any of that stuff.

Things that I don't like are using a previous year's car, buying axles, buying wheels, buying cars of the internet. But, how would you know? You have to go on Scout's honor.

Also, I believe that whatever rules you have should be enforceable. I turned down being on a committee for PWD because I felt the rules were unenforceable without a post race tear down and even then who knows. For example, one rule said no grooved axles. Now, I believe that is something a cub could do and it's virtually unenforcable without a tear down and I don't believe we should do that to someone's car.

Besides, the more rules you make the more someone will find a way around them - or stretch them at the very least.

Good luck.

Search the intenet for 2010 Pinewood Derby Rules and you'll find plenty. That's what I was doing before I bowed out.

[AlabamaDan]

Personally, I think it is unreasonable to prohibit raised wheels or canted axles, because kids should be able to "just build the car" without worrying about violating rules like that. If a kid mounts the wheels and axles, then they will almost certainly violate any "four on the floor" or "no canted axles" rules. But I am not in charge of your district derby.

Good point, there's a different between doing something unintential vs doing it on purpose. I'll bet 95% of the boys and dads don't even know what canted means. If they violate the rules it's probably an accident. Besides who's gonna judge a 1% canted wheel?

[doct1010]

Generally speaking, the more "creative" builders have always adopted the " If it doesn't say we can't, we can." The rules "in the box", unless changed with new wheel, are quite liberal and allow "out of the box" thinking imo. In my expereince, most rules, even if primarily "in the box", will have specifics on wheel mods, lube and moving parts/springs.

A good argument for clear, concise and well written rules if your intention is to limit a builders options.

[scoutfrog]

On your other post I posted a pic of my "illegal" open cars.
If you read my post from Feb 5 2006, it explains the building of them based on using "the rules in the box". I had been asking for printed rules for 3 years and was told "..rules in the box". Basicly, the idea was, "if there is not a rule against it, than it must be legal".

If you have ask for an item to be explained more clearly and it has not been, then you should be in the clear.

[murphken]

You might notice that scoutfrog is in the same proximity as me so he knows what I am talking about.

Everyone: Points well taken and thank you kindly for your input. Good stuff and excellent analogies! Honestly, this stuff is fun for my Cub and I. We enjoy helping out other scouts and seeing these boys develop and being engaged in PWD.

Scoutfrog: Are you coming to our pack race and will you be at district? Send PM! We could use your help at the pack level!

Murph