Beat by luck?

[Tommyd662]

My son had his race on Saturday he won his Den and came in second in the Pack. He was pulling 1.8's constantly. The car that beat him was pulling 1.6's. I don't get it! I inspected the car over and over and over and I couldn't figure it out. I talked to the Dad and he said they did nothing special!

Anyway- he goes on to Districts. We also made a car for a scout in our Den who is termially ill. His car came in second in the Den and 3rd O.A. His car is also going to district.

[Kenny]

Best congrats on everyone's success. Sounds like you had an awesome day.

Flukes do happen, but 0.20 secs is a lot of time!

Perhaps if you share more detail about the track, and your car, we can help you find at least some of that time.

K

[Tommyd662]

Hmmmm. It's a 25 ft. wood track for the Pack. The district uses a longer track. The car is a straight rider. Axles polished to 2000 grit with a final polish of jewler's rouge. No camber (I don't have the tools.)

I don't know what else to share really?

[pwrd by tungsten]

Rail riding is pretty potent. Perhaps they were doing that?

[Tommyd662]

PBT- That's what i thought and I asked him- "What were you guys running, a Rail Rider?" And he said "What's that?" So I explained it to him and he said "Wouldn't that make it slower?" LOL

[tmbnorm]

Flukes can and do happen. One year at Pack, a boy and his Dad were literally putting the car together the morning of the race at the gym. They glued on weight and put on the axles and wheels at check in. The car finished 3rd in pack.

He could just be playing dumb about not knowing about it being a rail rider.
The car could have been a RR by mistake.

[doct1010]

Tom,
Tell us where the advantage was gained. From the pin drop, in the transition on the flat ect.? .2 is alot!

[tmbnorm]

Was your son's car in the low 1.8s? and the other car in the high 1.6s?

Did either car wiggle down the straight away? When they ran head to head, where did the separation occur?

[Tommyd662]

Ok- I'm trying to figure this out. Just know that they did not run head to head. Our Pack doesn't do that and it drives me nuts! They only run Den competitions. Since everything is computerized- they base standings off the run times. The Packs in our district are limited to 6 entries. The winner of each Den goes on to Districts plus the next fastest car (which I fought for this year).

I am looking at the averages that were just emailed to me.

First place car- Time (Average over 6 Heats) 11.222 - 227.8 MPH
My son's car- Time: 11.329 - 225.7 MPH
Car we built for Ill scout Time 11.357 - 225.1 MPH

I asked for a more detailed result for heat by heat for the WebsII and Webs I. I won't have it til Saturday.

I am also ashamed to say- I didn't see my son's car actually run because I was too busy doing registration for the next race.

[Tommyd662]

Was your son's car in the low 1.8s? and the other car in the high 1.6s?

I'm waiting for the heat-by-heat analysis...

[Stan Pope]

The data you give indicates total 6-heat times with a difference of a total 0.1 sec for the combined times! That works out to about 0.016 sec per heat.

On a short track that still has nearly 4' drop, one can get by with much more extreme weight distribution and still not have the rearend alignment perfect. The "death rattle" is usually in the last 8 feet of a 32' track. 9 or 10 to 1 weight dist plus RR (by accident or on purpose) plus running on three wheels might readily accomplish the 0.016 second or more advantage over a car with a safer weight dist and accidental steer of the lifted wheel into the rail, even if its rear were very well aligned. Might even do it if your car's lifted wheel only touched occasionally which is not uncommon for straight aligned cars.

So, for your pack it may be a good thing that 2nd fastest finishers go to district also, since they will likely be running on a usual 32' track (or longer).


I hauled out the spreadsheet and (lazily) compute the average time per heat for the three cars:
First place: 1.870
Your driver: 1.888
The driver you helped: 1.893

The 1.6's report was apparently erroneous or an unlikely one-off.

This smaller difference is easily caused by any one or two of the suggested construction specifics.

[sporty]

Thats not a big time change.

Ive seen different lubes and application process's have that differance.

A little weight differance, a tad better on .alignment . not refering to RR.

Or wheel or bore prep. Thats not a wider range for times.

Heck You can see that from one lane to the other lane and on a manual release gate.


Sporty

[Tommyd662]

I received the heat by heat analysis. I was wrong. My son's car was pulling 1.88's and the "lucky" car was pulling 1.86's

Here is my son's breakdown by heat...
Heat 1 - Lane 2 - 1.888
Heat 2 - Did not run
Heat 3 - Lane 1 - 1.893
Heat 4 - Lane 5 - 1.884
Heat 5 - Did not run
Heat 6 - Lane 4 - 1.884
Heat 7 - Did not run
Heat 8 - Lane 3 - 1.887
Heat 9 - Lane 6 - 1.893

The "lucky" car by heat...
Heat 1 - DNR
Heat 2 - Lane 2 - 1.886
Heat 3 - Lane 6 - 1.875
Heat 4 - Lane 1 - 1.868
Heat 5 - DNR
Heat 6 - DNR
Heat 7 - Lane 5 - 1.863
Heat 8 - DNR
Heat 9 - DNR
Heat 10 - Lane 4 - 1.861
Heat 11 - DNR
Heat 12 - Lane 3 - 1.889

[Kenny]

Well, that's a little different story. You get much better grades for consistency, as Lucky was all over the place with a deviation of .028 sec ! vs your deviation of .009 sec. His car definitely fit the profile of a straight runner with these times.

Some random thoughts:

You both probably lost a lot of time slapping the rail & some hub rub. With a 25 ft track, I'm guessing it's mostly slope and transistion with not a lot of flat? If so, it's all about rear weight placement all else being equal.

RR would definitely help tighten up the times, especially when running on a longer track with more flat section. Huge difference between 25ft wood and 40 + feet aluminum where quiet stability keeps you in the game.

Were you both running extended wheel base? 3 wheels touching? Cambered wheels? 1 oz or less on the front dom wheel?

Since you will be moving to districts you really should find out all you can about the track you'll be running on as early as possible. It's worth the effort to get this detail. Overall length, start gate height, type of curve, length of flat, and mfg of the track helps too. With this info you can dial-in your car to fit the track. People here on the board have shared their setups on the various tracks.

You definitely have room for improvement if you've got the time to work it.

When you go to Districts or Council I can virtually guarantee you'll be facing RR setup cars and they will be fast. Straight runner are capable of the running the fastest time of the day, but they will also run some of the worst. RR technique addresses this effectively.

K

[Tommyd662]

Our weight is 5.0 with the center of balance 1-1/4" in front of the rear axles with an extended wheel base. No camber. All 4 wheels must touch.