Derby was the 6th. I am (partially) hacked off!

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roosclan
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Derby was the 6th. I am (partially) hacked off!

Post by roosclan »

Well, the boys did pretty well at this year's pack race (car bodies can be seen here). My Webelo2/Boy Scout (they let him race since he just crossed to BSA 3 weeks ago) took 2nd overall --1st for webelo2, but he was the only one. He had a best time of 3.007s. My Webelo1 took 2nd in his den and 4th overall. Something was wrong with his car, as he was a full .1s slower than his brothers most of the time. His best time was 3.078s. He thinks he may not have put enough graphite in the bores. My Wolf took 1st in his den and Grand Champion (this was his goal this year) with a best time of 3.013s. Our district decides placement based on cumulative times over 8 runs. My Wolf had a time of 24.309s and my Web2 had a time of 24.409s.

Not a bad day until after the race...

The District Committee Chairman pulled me aside and told me that the boys cars won't qualify for the district race (the next day) because they had guide pins instead of a 4th wheel. He cited this rule:
Only official Cub Scout Pinewood Derby kits may be used. Any substitutions (wheels, nails, wood block, etc.) will be disqualified. No bushings, bearing, springs, or other kit substitutes will be allowed. Non BSA kits purchased at Lowes, Westlake, and Hobby Lobby etc. will be disqualified.
On its face, it doesn't necessarily disqualify a guide pin, especially since I asked him last year, and he stated that it was worded that way because some scouts showed up with cars they had made with a Lowe's kit a few years back, and others showed up with Pinecar brand wheels. I even emailed him last year asking if guide pins would be allowed, requesting that he reply if they would not be permitted. He never told me they could not be used. The boys used guide pins last year and managed to (very) handily take 1st and 2nd place at the district.

Now this year, he cited this rule as the reason that my boys couldn't race. I tried to state my case as such:
A) The rules were exactly the same as the year before
B) They allowed guide pins last year.
C) Nowhere in the rules was it stated that guide pins were not allowed or that all 4 wheels had to be on the car.
D) How was a parent supposed to know that they re-interpreted the rules for this year when no clarification was given at any time?

I asked him point-blank why guide pins were allowed last year under this rule, but not this year, even though the rules are exactly the same. He would not give me an answer, and just kept repeating the rule. He said the cars would have to be modified to accept a 4th wheel if they were going to race. We'll see if they clarify the rules for next year, but I'm not holding my breath, considering the chairman's attitude.

Sadly, there was no way to modify my Web1's car at all to accept a 4th wheel, as all wheels have to be in the axle slots. My other two boys' cars could have been modified, with a loss of left-right balance, messed up CoM, and possibly altered alignment. The other two refused to participate in the district since their brother would not be able to. My Wolf flat out said, "If they won't let him race, then I'm not going! That's not fair!" There's something to be said for sibling loyalty. My Web1 took the news the best of all three of them.

In all, I'm hacked off at the district chairman, I feel bad for my boys, but I'm proud of them. They worked their tails off building their cars, they raced well, and stood by their brother, even though his car didn't do as well as theirs and was pre-disqualified from Districts. I just hope it didn't sour them to racing next year.
Tempus fugit. Frater, memento mori.
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Stan Pope
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Re: Derby was the 6th. I am (partially) hacked off!

Post by Stan Pope »

Will the cars run safely without the "guide pins"? Many will. If your son's cars will run without, just remove them and run true 3-wheelers! :)
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Re: Derby was the 6th. I am (partially) hacked off!

Post by Darin McGrew »

I'll second Stan's suggestion. If you can remove wood from the original block, then you can remove wheels/axles too, at least based on what you've posted. The problem is with "substitutions", so don't substitute.
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Re: Derby was the 6th. I am (partially) hacked off!

Post by Stan Pope »

With Darin's support, I feel much more confident. :)

Regarding the stop section ... some of them may try to "dump" your cars off to one side if there is a front wheel missing. Consider gluing a short thin piece of wood on the underside near the front which is slightly diagonal toward the missing wheel. As the car slides, the wood will gently nudge the DFW toward the rail. This should not upset the balance of the cars nearly as much as putting a wheel on ... and probably not at all.

I've not tried this, but it seems sound and could be implemented with about the same weight as the guide pin you remove.

Besides ... what have you got to lose? :)
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Re: Derby was the 6th. I am (partially) hacked off!

Post by Lucky13 »

Roosclan,

What are the guide pegs made of ? What if you just make some replacement guide pegs from the leftover BSA block ? This should satisfy the rule that was quoted by the Chairman.




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Re: Derby was the 6th. I am (partially) hacked off!

Post by gpraceman »

I concur with Lucky 13's suggestion. Safer than running with no peg at all and shouldn't mess with the balance much.
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Re: Derby was the 6th. I am (partially) hacked off!

Post by Duane »

If your official kits came in a cardboard box, you can fashion a less-rigid peg out of that cardboard.
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Re: Derby was the 6th. I am (partially) hacked off!

Post by mizefish »

Roosclan,
I don't suppose you'd care to post this Chairman's email address... I'd like to share with him a few thoughts about sportsmanship and the words "Do Your Best."
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Re: Derby was the 6th. I am (partially) hacked off!

Post by gpraceman »

mizefish wrote:Roosclan,
I don't suppose you'd care to post this Chairman's email address... I'd like to share with him a few thoughts about sportsmanship and the words "Do Your Best."
That would not be appropriate to post.
Randy Lisano
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Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
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Re: Derby was the 6th. I am (partially) hacked off!

Post by Duane »

That district race was last week, so all creative workarounds for that ruling are now moot.

I see that in your district, all packs and district use the same set of written rules, in fact the ones published by your pack hosting the district race. So any variations are due to unwritten, uncommunicated rules or personal interpretation variations of the individuals in charge. The written rules are apparently not complete or clear enough, as is.

It sounds like the chairman ruled based on the peg acting like a commercial substitute for a BSA wheel.

It would be good if the revised rules said clearly whether or not all four BSA wheels must be on, and whether or not all four must be in regular contact with the track, and whether additional tracking guides (made from the kit?) can be added.

The existing rules are also somewhat unclear on whether wheels can be lightened by removing material from inside the rim.
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Re: Derby was the 6th. I am (partially) hacked off!

Post by FatSebastian »

Lucky13 wrote:What if you just make some replacement guide pegs from the leftover BSA block ? This should satisfy the rule that was quoted by the Chairman.
I might have also suggested using a bent BSA axle as a peg. That is obviously not a "substitution".

Lesson learnt: if you race with a peg in a Scout race, design it so that the peg can be replaced with a wheel as necessary. We did that this year not being sure what to expect, and we were glad we did.
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Re: Derby was the 6th. I am (partially) hacked off!

Post by Stan Pope »

Duane wrote:That district race was last week, so all creative workarounds for that ruling are now moot.
Rats!

I'd have loved to see the series of work-arounds tested against the "rules interpreter."

One of the (I think) unique features of Wotamalo is that "close" interpretations are documented online shortly after the interpretation is released to whomever asked. This should help avoid "uncommunicated" interpretations but it could also inhibit questions from those who fear that their question could "tip off" others to ways to get more speed and thus lose a competitive advantage. It should also help maintain consistency of interpretations from year to year.
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Re: Derby was the 6th. I am (partially) hacked off!

Post by stang68 »

Competaive advantage is a huge advantage when no one else in a pack knows about it.If we see something on a car that has an advantage in speed over all other cars we DQ it under a fairness rule,other words if you find a loop hole in the rules you have an obligation to make it known to the committee and if allowed known to the packs in a reasonbal time frame to have it in the rules before kits are handed out.
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Re: Derby was the 6th. I am (partially) hacked off!

Post by FatSebastian »

stang68 wrote:If we see something on a car that has an advantage in speed over all other cars we DQ it under a fairness rule.
:watching:
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Re: Derby was the 6th. I am (partially) hacked off!

Post by gpraceman »

stang68 wrote:Competaive advantage is a huge advantage when no one else in a pack knows about it.If we see something on a car that has an advantage in speed over all other cars we DQ it under a fairness rule,other words if you find a loop hole in the rules you have an obligation to make it known to the committee and if allowed known to the packs in a reasonbal time frame to have it in the rules before kits are handed out.
Holy Mackerel! Is this "obligation" communicated along with the rules and well in advance of the race? Regardless, creativity and innovation get punished in trying to DQ someone on race day for something that the race committee did not foresee. Maybe the committee needs to be a little more proactive with the rules, instead of reactive (especially on race day); otherwise, the rules come across as arbitrary and based on the whim of the race committee.
Randy Lisano
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Awana Grand Prix and Pinewood Derby racing - Where a child, an adult and a small block of wood combine for a lot of fun and memories.
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