Graphite pads via water?

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FatSebastian
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by FatSebastian »

Desmoryder wrote:I will try to post some pictures of the wheel bores. How are pictures posted on this site?
See this topic. Thanks for replying.
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Re: Graphite pads via water? Search for the truth

Post by gpraceman »

Teeeman wrote:all 4 cars inspected had "bushings" even if made of dry graphite, for 3 of them the admittance of water was just galvanizing the judge decision
I guess that I have to wonder why the use of water really makes any difference? Is water considered a liquid lube? Sure, it is a liquid but I don't know of anyone in the derby world that would seriously consider water to be a lube. Do the rules ban any liquids? If so, paints, liquid polishes and rinsing the wheels or axles to clean them off would all DQ someone. Of course, air contains water...

If the issue is really about bushings, I don't really see that it matters how the observed bushings came about other than if someone was to try to determine if it was something intentional or not. It just seems that someone allegedly admitting to using water somehow cemented the judges decision on the bushings matter. Or maybe they were judging that water is a liquid lube and thus that was really the grounds for the DQ? :scratching:
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by Desmoryder »

Here are some pics of the wheel bores. There are some variations from wheel to wheel, but this is a sample of what they look like. These are the only magnified pictures that I have seen of PWD Wheels so I have nothing to compare them to.

Image
Image
Image
Image
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by FatSebastian »

:goodpost:
Desmoryder wrote:These are the only magnified pictures that I have seen of PWD Wheels so I have nothing to compare them to.
FYI, here are some other pictures of very highly polished wheel bores.

I have no experiencing with tear-down analyses, so what si the tell-tale sign that liquids were necessarily involved here? :scratching: And does this meet the definition of a "bushing" to anyone else?
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

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FatSebastian wrote:And does this meet the definition of a "bushing" to anyone else?
I'm not sure what those marks ringing the center of the bore are. Small flakes of caked graphite or bore damage? Hard to tell by the photos.

I think to deem something a bushing, IMO, it would really have to be blatant. If someone was deliberately trying to make a bushing from graphite, I would expect to see graphite caked over much of the length and perimeter of the bore, not just some flakes or cakes. If you find graphite packed in the recesses of the inner or outer hubs, then I would also consider that to be a bushing.
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Re: Graphite pads via water? Search for the truth

Post by FatSebastian »

Desmoryder wrote:I asked the race official what a graphite pad was. He then produced an illustration (not an actual photo) in a book of what I believe was a surface treated with dry powdered graphite another one treated with something else (I believe he said with graphite and oil and/or water). He said that that our wheel bores looked like the illustration of the one treated with something other than dry powdered graphite, and was thus illegal.
:thinking: Tough one. Looking back at our earlier conversations, IMO the above photographs may or may not resemble Figure 9.57 from the Physics of the Pinewood Derby by John Jobe (aka the BGB, p. 314), which is the only illustration I have come across which shows the effect of a liquid/graphite mixture. Based on the BGB, my sense was that if silicone oil is involved, clumping is prevented and one sees only "graphite particles uniformly dispersed", which is does not seem to be happening here. To my eye, spots in the photos could then arguably resemble the graphite "clumps" or "pads" of Figure 9.56 (a result that does not involve liquid), although the clumps in the photos seem smaller in scale than Figure 9.56. Still it is hard to say, based only on a drawing. :idk: Perhaps someone else could also compare the posted photos with the BGB illustrations and report back (e.g., pwd by tungsten)?

Evidence that silicone oil is involved should be the appearance of a dirty graphite-laden residue on the axle, as already noted by pbt. I found no other illustrations of the effects of other liquid-graphite mixtures (including water); if so, it would seem problematic to extrapolate illustrations of the BGB for silicone oil to the use of liquids in general, if that indeed was the source of the illustration referenced by Desmoryder. :2cents:
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by Teeeman »

I'll clarfiy (again) I wasn't at inspection... tear down part...

... the head judge told me there was clear admittance of using water.

Frank, did one of the other dads admit to using it?

(I was told 2 of 3 dads admitted to it)

If that is in error my apologies...


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Re: Graphite pads via water?

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Teeeman wrote:Looked over BGB... I'm still convinced what I saw last spring was the oil + graphite.
This is all very intriguing! TMan, if you can say, how do the posted photos compare to what you saw last spring (size of particles, distribution of particles, etc.)? Did what you see last spring form an annulus like in the photos? How do feel the above photos compare to the BGB illustrations? :polling: (If openly commenting complicates your situation locally, then we'll understand.)
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

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Teeeman wrote:I'll clarfiy (again) I wasn't at inspection... tear down part...
... the head judge told me there was clear admittance of using water.
Frank, did one of the other dads admit to using it?
(I was told 2 of 3 dads admitted to it)
If that is in error my apologies...
-Terry
We were second in line for the inspections so I got to overhear the first one. I am paraphrasing here, but from what I remember, The Dad described rubbing the graphite into the wheel hub with a sucker (lolly-pop) stick that had been dampened with water to make the graphite adhere to the stick. He mentioned that this was done weeks before the race and everything was dry at the time of the race. We left the stage after our disqualification, so I didn't get to witness the other inspection. I can understand the stories getting mixed up. I was having a tough time remembering exactly what was said by the Dad in front of us. I do rember that the Dad was very open and was willing to describe the wheel prep in detail. He didn't appear to have anything go hide.

One thing that I do not understand, and maybe you can help answer: If our car from the 2009 council race was illegal, as the head official stated, why were we not informed of this by race officials? I know several cars were disqualified for various reasons, but not ours. Did the head official get us confused with someone else or was there really an issue from last year? A statment was made the "the trick was used last year". Was that a reference to our entry or someone else's? . Again, I thought that our preparation methods were commonly used legal techniques and was unaware that there were any issues with last year's car until the Friday night before the 2010 race. Can any of the officials from the 2009 Council race comment on these questions?

I dropped our wheels off at the Scout office today and the receptionist left them on Curtis' desk (he was in a meeting when I was there), so they will be available for examination during the meeting. The primary thing I am after is an impartial evaluation to determine if the condition of the wheel bores is indeed illegal. If so, I would like to determine what caused the graphite to form the illegal condition, and how I can prevent it from happening again. Thanks for your input.
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Re: Graphite pads via water? Search for the truth

Post by pwrd by tungsten »

FatSebastian wrote:
Desmoryder wrote:I asked the race official what a graphite pad was. He then produced an illustration (not an actual photo) in a book of what I believe was a surface treated with dry powdered graphite another one treated with something else (I believe he said with graphite and oil and/or water). He said that that our wheel bores looked like the illustration of the one treated with something other than dry powdered graphite, and was thus illegal.
:thinking: Tough one. Looking back at our earlier conversations, IMO the above photographs may or may not resemble Figure 9.57 from the Physics of the Pinewood Derby by John Jobe (aka the BGB, p. 314), which is the only illustration I have come across which shows the effect of a liquid/graphite mixture. Based on the BGB, my sense was that if silicone oil is involved, clumping is prevented and one sees only "graphite particles uniformly dispersed", which is does not seem to be happening here. To my eye, spots in the photos could then arguably resemble the graphite "clumps" or "pads" of Figure 9.56 (a result that does not involve liquid), although the clumps in the photos seem smaller in scale than Figure 9.56. Still it is hard to say, based only on a drawing. :idk: Perhaps someone else could also compare the posted photos with the BGB illustrations and report back (e.g., pwd by tungsten)?

Evidence that silicone oil is involved should be the appearance of a dirty graphite-laden residue on the axle, as already noted by pbt. I found no other illustrations of the effects of other liquid-graphite mixtures (including water); if so, it would seem problematic to extrapolate illustrations of the BGB for silicone oil to the use of liquids in general, if that indeed was the source of the illustration referenced by Desmoryder. :2cents:

9.57 is what you would expect oil and graphite to look like. A mud like substance. Sludgie etc... Adding the oil is an additional step on top of what is seen in diagram 9.56. This extra step destroys the clumps.... acording to the author.

9.56 is all dry materials.

There are multiple pictures in 9.56 but the left upper and left lower pictures are the only ones that are of interest.

They show evenly spaced clumps. The top picture from pure graphite. The bottom one from graphite mixed with dry tefelon. (I am not giving away any secrets of the book.) The tefelon was not the standard white tube of dry tefelon sold by pinecar for derbycars. I can assume it is very similar. but not the same... dry White teflon being one of the worst lubes (for pinewood purposes)

The lumps in the photos in this thread seem flat compared to the diagram in the book. In addition the author clearly states that unless the clumps are evenly distributed on the bore this technique is slower than highly polished,

In the photos there are two bores with almost nothing in them. I assume these were the front wheels? I also see two with more circles. Although more they are still not completly distributed through out the bore.

Rear wheels have (typically 2.5 ounces left rear and 1.5 - 2 ounces right rear.)

Compared to lifted wheel (has only 2.6 grams pushing down... assuming new wheels).

Right front wheel. between 1 and 0.5 ounces.

Point being rears are worked more. Damage seems to have occured during racing from increased pressure on bores on rear wheels.
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by sporty »

K with reading some more and getting now what I think is enough info for me to be able to give a good solid and informed reply to all parties involved here.


I have circled in the pic, what i would consider to be what has lead to the comments, decision of the heart of all of this.


Image


This to me (appears) as bubbles, caused from a liquid substance. I have not seen dry lube in my experience do this.

In the middle, I see this often, caking or bore bore prep. due to the mushrooming of the ends, is that I have determined by this photo, that the bore in the middle did not get prepped and was not as slick and also did not make contact with the axle either.

So thats what is going on in the middle of the wheel bore.


Lets go back to the bubbles, seen in the photo, that I circled.

This could be (speculative) that if said process was indeed done with water on the sucker stick for burnish, could have caused a water bubble pocket under micron layer of lube.


My view here is the following-

1 this process should not be illegal. The water was used for the sucker stick, not to catch and groove or damage the surface while burnishing with lube

2- counter to 1, if it's oil, then i would say no to being legal. rules clearly state no oil.

3- The fact that one or more has came to state there side of the story, and trying not to really show anger is a real plus here. Seems atleast here has conveyed there side well. Despite all of this.

4- The charter rep, the church likely, would have the final say so, over council and over the pack, FYI.


5- graphite, is acting as a micron bushing to begin with. So i'm not so sure i would want to even go with the whole bushing issue anyhow.

6- oil does not easily dry up, water does.

7- so the real issue is, is water considered a oil ? is using water illegal for burnishing. burnishing is allowed. Water evaporates.


To me, this has perhaps gone to far on all parties involved. difficult and hard one everyone and lets not forget the kids.

i think it has to be proven it was oil used. I'm not sure this can be 100% proven. i'd be inclined to let them race.

further more, id exstend out a offer to the parents,

send me a set of prepped wheels with this process, id be happy to look at it. but make sure its the same process that was done for the cars race.

now parents, you admited using water, if the pack pinewood derby wants to stand on that as a liquid and was not allowed. Then by your own admitance you will not be allowed to race.

I'm quessing the issue, is you do not consider water as doing something wrong. There in lies a issue. where the pinewood derby committee members do.

I always say when in doubt ask before the race, then you have that to stand and go on.

however others use wet sanding process for bore prep, id say this should be allowed and was not intended to go outside 0f the rules.

So, In my summary, id say let them race, but if its oil, just say so and be done with it.

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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by pwrd by tungsten »

Sporty,

What if they are talking about the middle of the bore as the part in question? That is just poor bore prep correct?

I have purcased a hand drill for wet bore prep only. It is all I use it for. I use a qtip and Novus #2 to polish the wheel bore. Then I chuck up a pipe cleaner dipped in alcohol to remove the residu from the novus #2 and then I rinse with water and blow dry with a can of compressed air. I then chuck up a new pipe cleaner and burnish with graphite. I could easily have left some water in one or more of the bores and it would look like in the picture. Water blown sideways...
Last edited by pwrd by tungsten on Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by sporty »

The middle of the bore is due to a few issues.

1- the mushroom issue with these wheels. the middle of the bore never made contact with the axle. due to being bigger in the middle.

the prep work did not get done well in the middle due to this, they did not resolve the mushrooming issue with there wheels.

Thats just caking there.

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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by Darin McGrew »

Teeeman wrote:I'll clarfiy (again) I wasn't at inspection... tear down part...

... the head judge told me there was clear admittance of using water.
I'll clarify (again) even though I wasn't at the tear-down inspection either...

Your rules do not prohibit the use of water or other liquids during the construction and preparation of the car, and they do not prohibit the use of water or other liquids during the application of graphite or other dry lubricants.
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by pwrd by tungsten »

I also think that it was the inner portion of the pictured bore that was drawing comparison the the chart in the book. This has been proven to be poor boor prep / poor quality of bores...

Case Dismissed....
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