Graphite pads via water?

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gpraceman
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by gpraceman »

Darin McGrew wrote:I have been informed privately that the tear-down inspector did not actually rule that water (used in the application of graphite) was prohibited as a "liquid lube". Therefore, I retract the above comment.
Darin McGrew wrote:I have been informed privately that the tear-down inspector did not actually rule that the clumped graphite formed a "bushing". Therefore, I retract the above comment.
Interesting. So, I wonder what the official grounds for DQ ended up being? Hopefully, they provided an explanation to those DQ'd as to what that final determination was.
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by psycaz »

gpraceman wrote:
Darin McGrew wrote:I have been informed privately that the tear-down inspector did not actually rule that water (used in the application of graphite) was prohibited as a "liquid lube". Therefore, I retract the above comment.
Darin McGrew wrote:I have been informed privately that the tear-down inspector did not actually rule that the clumped graphite formed a "bushing". Therefore, I retract the above comment.
Interesting. So, I wonder what the official grounds for DQ ended up being? Hopefully, they provided an explanation to those DQ'd as to what that final determination was.
If those aren't the reasons for the dq's, then what were (as Randy asked)?

This whole thread is derived on the basis that those dq's were based on those assumptions.

I am starting to feel real bad for those kids. It is beginning to sound like someone had it in their head that there will be cheating going on and they were going to dq folks to stop it in the future, since it didn't seem to work last year.

That and they now want it to just go away.
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by rpcarpe »

All,
Everyone involved feels bad for the boys. Especially those that had to stick to their guns and DQ those cars.

The PWD Chair and committee already met w/ the District Executive (DE).
All concerned parties have been briefed on DQ's and the results of the meetings. DE will meet with any others as needed. Final Decisions were made by the DE. Council supports him on this.

Bottom Line:
Graphite pads (as observed at the race) in wheel bores don't appear possible via water.
DQ's stand.
New Rules for next year (already in draft, great improvements)
People in PWD are just that, people. Mistakes get made, sometimes.
I'm convinced the PWD Chair, committee and DE did the absolute best they could.

As they say in the Soapbox... 'The officials for this Derby are volunteers. Before you criticize their decisions, be
prepared to take their place.'

May we now consider the Equus caballus to be deceased?
My wife started a new support group... Widows of the Pinewood Derby.
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by psycaz »

rpcarpe wrote:All,
Everyone involved feels bad for the boys. Especially those that had to stick to their guns and DQ those cars.

The PWD Chair and committee already met w/ the District Executive (DE).
All concerned parties have been briefed on DQ's and the results of the meetings. DE will meet with any others as needed. Final Decisions were made by the DE. Council supports him on this.

Bottom Line:
Graphite pads (as observed at the race) in wheel bores don't appear possible via water.
DQ's stand.
New Rules for next year (already in draft, great improvements)
People in PWD are just that, people. Mistakes get made, sometimes.
I'm convinced the PWD Chair, committee and DE did the absolute best they could.

As they say in the Soapbox... 'The officials for this Derby are volunteers. Before you criticize their decisions, be
prepared to take their place.
'

May we now consider the Equus caballus to be deceased?

Should I take the bolded part as to let it go, it doesn't concern us/me?
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by gpraceman »

psycaz wrote:Should I take the bolded part as to let it go, it doesn't concern us/me?
I think he is basically trying to indicate that what is done is done, they are learning from it and trying to move on to make next year's race better.
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by psycaz »

gpraceman wrote:
psycaz wrote:Should I take the bolded part as to let it go, it doesn't concern us/me?
I think he is basically trying to indicate that what is done is done, they are learning from it and trying to move on to make next year's race better.
I just feel like the losers in this are the boys. It sounds like there were some mistakes by those in charge and it is simpler to bury it than acknowledge it.

Just because someone can't easily reproduce what was expected, doesn't mean it couldn't happen.
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by FatSebastian »

rpcarpe wrote:Bottom Line: Graphite pads (as observed at the race) in wheel bores don't appear possible via water. DQ's stand. [...] May we now consider the Equus caballus to be deceased?
rpcarpe, might you or Teeeman embellish a bit on your earlier reply? Your bottom line observation about the pads is likely a reasonable conclusion IMO; however, since Frank claimed that he never used water, as worded your statement seems to argue against the standing DQ, especially considering Darin's note that the tear-down inspector did not actually rule that the clumped graphite formed a "bushing".

I am somewhat sympathetic regarding the tough job of the inspectors, and completely understand if you and Teeeman choose to let this dead horse lay; however, my feeling is that the horse is going to stink if somebody doesn't bury it. ;)
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by Teeeman »

Working with 2nd hand info has created some confusion, let me try to provide a summary:

Council race the past 2 years had breakaway cars and the time delta corresponded very well to the delta documented by Jobe and others as the difference in liquid vs dry lube.

This was the impetus last spring for a Council tear down, liquid was in use (I saw it) but only 1 car was DQ'd... not for liquids, but for bought (blunt end machined) axles. Frank and the others were not DQ'd.

These findings were communicated for months as a petition to District and Council the rule was unenforceable and needed to change.

Council and District refused to change the rule.

Head judge now is in the same situation as before, bad rule... only way to enforce is tear down.
Head judge knows some of the same folks we caught at Council will be at District, so he fairly warns with a sign that post-race tear down is possible (this was on the inspection tables). It was at this point those averse to tear down or to possibly being ruled illegal had the option to not enter the race.

Tear down occurred.
Head judge saw "side to side heavy clumps in the bores". His word. Nobody has further proof.

We have explored options as to how this could have happened legally in this thread, the conclusion is uncertain, there are many different opinions.

The rule violated was use of liquid lubrication and intentional formation of bushings. Use of water in the build is not illegal, but intentional bushings are.

Our judge said he was told that water was used in the build, but all he focused on was liquid and bushing... a graphite bushing that is not inadvertent is illegal per his discretion and he was in charge of rules interpretation and the committee has agreed this interpretation was correct (doesn't matter who else disagrees with that at this point).

The end to this is the DQs stand and the rules are changing so this won't repeat.

I would ask that anybody with a firm and publicly stated opinion the tear down was wrong please provide a solution to how the bad rule could have been gently but effectively enforced. That was the situation the judge was faced with, else run the risk of allowing a handful of folks to rob 120+ other kids of a fair chance to win.

-T
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by psycaz »

Teeeman wrote:Working with 2nd hand info has created some confusion, let me try to provide a summary:

Council race the past 2 years had breakaway cars and the time delta corresponded very well to the delta documented by Jobe and others as the difference in liquid vs dry lube.

This was the impetus last spring for a Council tear down, liquid was in use (I saw it) but only 1 car was DQ'd... not for liquids, but for bought (blunt end machined) axles. Frank and the others were not DQ'd.

These findings were communicated for months as a petition to District and Council the rule was unenforceable and needed to change.

Council and District refused to change the rule.

Head judge now is in the same situation as before, bad rule... only way to enforce is tear down.
Head judge knows some of the same folks we caught at Council will be at District, so he fairly warns with a sign that post-race tear down is possible (this was on the inspection tables). It was at this point those averse to tear down or to possibly being ruled illegal had the option to not enter the race.

Tear down occurred.
Head judge saw "side to side heavy clumps in the bores". His word. Nobody has further proof.

We have explored options as to how this could have happened legally in this thread, the conclusion is uncertain, there are many different opinions.

The rule violated was use of liquid lubrication and intentional formation of bushings. Use of water in the build is not illegal, but intentional bushings are.

Our judge said he was told that water was used in the build, but all he focused on was liquid and bushing... a graphite bushing that is not inadvertent is illegal per his discretion and he was in charge of rules interpretation and the committee has agreed this interpretation was correct (doesn't matter who else disagrees with that at this point).

The end to this is the DQs stand and the rules are changing so this won't repeat.

I would ask that anybody with a firm and publicly stated opinion the tear down was wrong please provide a solution to how the bad rule could have been gently but effectively enforced. That was the situation the judge was faced with, else run the risk of allowing a handful of folks to rob 120+ other kids of a fair chance to win.

-T
Teeman

My point was and still is that you have one parent saying that they didn't use water. The fact that a water/graphite mixture doesn't end up being that same thing that was seen doesn't seem to be a reason to dismiss what they are saying.

As I posted, if they were getting something similar to what I am seeing after just a few runs (small circular clumps) then they could be telling the truth. I know that I have taken cars apart in the past and have seen that same pattern vastly more prevelant in bores. I just clean it out and keep going. Usually it comes from repeated loading and running of graphite. To say that since the water/graphite mixture didn't come out as what they had saw so it must be illegal seems to me to be throwing the baby out with the bath water. From what has been posted, no one has tried running a car similar to the way that parent has stated what they have done to see if it causes what they had.

I state this as the boys are going to be labeled cheaters and they may not be. You have some who have admitted that they did use a method deemed to be illegal, that's fine. But what about the boy who didn't or at least thinks he didn't do anything wrong?

If I should mind my own business, just say so and I will not comment further. I just hate seeing someone labeled that way without knowing for sure they did it deliberate.
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by gpraceman »

Teeeman wrote:I would ask that anybody with a firm and publicly stated opinion the tear down was wrong please provide a solution to how the bad rule could have been gently but effectively enforced.
The thing is, you can't. No definitive way to catch at check-in and no definitive way to catch even with a post race teardown. Catch-22 for judges. Catch-22 for the racers as well, since teardown presents a much higher chance of DQing someone trying to follow the rules as the cars are put under the microscope. Can such a close examination be misleading and wrong conclusions drawn? I think it can.

So, what's worse, letting a cheater slip by or possibly DQing someone trying to follow the rules? To me, the latter. It labels someone a "cheater" when they weren't, especially so since it was determined after the race was run. Eventually things catch up with the real cheaters.

Bottom line is an unenforceable rule (no liquid lubes) that is fortunately being changed.

I do also hope that the rules are clarified as to what constitutes a bushing, since part of this controversy was pertaining to what officials deemed to be an attempt to make bushings. I would hope that the enforcement of that rule would err on the side of looking for something blatant (packed wheel recesses for example), instead of something possibly incidental (small clumps).
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by FatSebastian »

Teeeman wrote:The rule violated was use of liquid lubrication and intentional formation of bushings. [...] all he focused on was liquid and bushing...
psycaz wrote:My point was and still is that you have one parent saying that they didn't use water.
Reading between the lines, it seems that the judge is citing evidence of "liquid lubrication" even in the situation where a parent claimed no liquid was used. Perhaps that evidence is more than just the existence of "graphite pads"; circumstantial evidence certainly seems to include "breakaway" speed using 1999 wheels, and there may be other convincing visual descriptions / evidence from the judge to which we aren't privy.

Thanks for responding Terry.
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by Teeeman »

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how to enforce the situation more fairly since in their eyes we screwed up, and I don't see it yet...


... still waiting...


read what I wrote, get out pen and paper if necessary before posting again... water had little to do with it.


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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by gpraceman »

Teeeman wrote:I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how to enforce the situation more fairly since in their eyes we screwed up, and I don't see it yet...
I guess you think there is a more fair way to enforce an unenforceable rule. I really don't. Officials had their hands tied and tried to enforce the best they thought. Damned if you did, damned if you didn't. No win situation with the rules as they were written.
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by Teeeman »

gpraceman wrote:
Teeeman wrote:I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how to enforce the situation more fairly since in their eyes we screwed up, and I don't see it yet...
I guess you think there is a more fair way to enforce an unenforceable rule. I really don't. Officials had their hands tied and tried to enforce the best they thought. Damned if you did, damned if you didn't. No win situation with the rules as they were written.

Then why do I feel I'm being attacked by you (and psy?) judgementally... ?


Tear down = bad.


Thought that was agreed to...


Just curious though since those of you with judgemental approaches to this can't find a solution... I only wanted a solution, not criticism...


gp, how'd you get past the word filter?

Please edit the post... least, say darned?


My kid may read this and he's 13... (thanks!)





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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by Lucky13 »

I'm curious to what is considered "breakaway" speed in the standings ?




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