Graphite pads via water?

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Teeeman
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by Teeeman »

Lucky13 wrote:I'm curious to what is considered "breakaway" speed in the standings ?




Lucky 13


Read Jobe for more accurate numbers, or dig here ... you should get the same number... typically, 0.01 s is enough ... you'll see it as a "step function" in the finish times... remember, at the top of a highly competitive Council (or District, for that matter).


Before you respond, make sure you have looked at race data and know what .01 seconds means in terms of highly competitive PWD racing.
(thanks!)


-T
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gpraceman
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by gpraceman »

Teeeman wrote:Just curious though since those of you with judgemental approaches to this can't find a solution... I only wanted a solution, not criticism...
I truly wasn't trying to criticize you. I think you and other officials were placed in a no win situation with the rules that you were given to enforce. My criticism is with the rule itself.

IMO, the only solution is to relook at the rules and how they will be enforced for next year's race, which fortunately is being done. Make the rules enforceable. Catch the problems at check-in, not after the race is run. I've tried to state that all from the get go.

You can continue to hunt for some other solution to that quandary, but I'm not optimistic that you will find one that can catch the dishonest and won't possibly DQ the honest.
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Teeeman
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by Teeeman »

gpraceman wrote:
Teeeman wrote:Just curious though since those of you with judgemental approaches to this can't find a solution... I only wanted a solution, not criticism...
I truly wasn't trying to criticize you. I think you and other officials were placed in a no win situation with the rules that you were given to enforce. My criticism is with the rule itself.

IMO, the only solution is to relook at the rules and how they will be enforced for next year's race, which fortunately is being done. Catch the problems at check-in, not after the race is run. I've tried to state that from the get go.

You can continue to hunt for some other solution to that quandary, but I'm not optimistic that you will find one that can catch the dishonest and won't possibly DQ the honest.

The rules are changing for next year to allow liquid lubes.


Sorry if that wasn't clear.


No win situation? I want to hug you for saying it so well :)


(but you aren't getting my beverage, hahahahahh!)


-T
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by Lucky13 »

Teeeman wrote:
Lucky13 wrote:I'm curious to what is considered "breakaway" speed in the standings ?




Lucky 13


Read Jobe for more accurate numbers, or dig here ... you should get the same number... typically, 0.01 s is enough ... you'll see it as a "step function" in the finish times... remember, at the top of a highly competitive Council (or District, for that matter).


Before you respond, make sure you have looked at race data and know what .01 seconds means in terms of highly competitive PWD racing.
(thanks!)


-T

I think I am more than familiar with what .01 means in highly competitive pinewood racing ;) . To be honest though, at a scout level, It wouldn't raise any red flags to me if the top 5 cars were around a .01 faster than the 6th place and down car. Heck, even at a league level, that wouldn't faze me.




Lucky 13
Teeeman
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by Teeeman »

Yep.


-T

(1st was .02 s ahead of the rest, 2nd and 4th were using "old wheels"... 1999 vintage... )
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by Lucky13 »

Teeeman wrote:Yep.


-T

(1st was .02 s ahead of the rest, 2nd and 4th were using "old wheels"... 1999 vintage... )

Now that would raise a red flag for me, especially at a district or council level. I see your concern now, even though I have to admit, my sons and my buddy's son took 1-3rd last year at our council and all 3 of their cars were .02-.03 faster than the 4th place car...but neverless...I do see your concern.



Lucky 13
Last edited by Lucky13 on Tue Apr 20, 2010 12:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Teeeman
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by Teeeman »

Really!


:)




-T



See PMs please
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Darin McGrew
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by Darin McGrew »

Teeeman wrote:The rule violated was use of liquid lubrication and intentional formation of bushings. Use of water in the build is not illegal, but intentional bushings are.
This contradicts part of what you communicated to me privately. While I continue to retract my comments about supposed claims that evaporated water is a "liquid lube", I no longer retract my comments about the inability to distinguish between lubes (graphite) and "bushings" (clumped graphite).
Teeeman wrote:I would ask that anybody with a firm and publicly stated opinion the tear down was wrong please provide a solution to how the bad rule could have been gently but effectively enforced.
Just brainstorming...
  1. Fix the unenforceable rule. ("There is no right way to do the wrong thing.")
  2. Rely on the honor of all participants not to violate the unenforceable rule knowingly, and on the competence of all participants not to violate the unenforceable rule unknowingly.
  3. Have race personnel observe the lubrication of all cars, and impound the cars after they are lubricated. For a regional derby, that means that all the local derbies have to observe and impound the cars on your behalf.
  4. Switch the regional derby to an unscheduled, unscored format without trophies, so the best cars in the region can be seen by a wider audience, but without hard feelings over who won by (intentionally or unintentionally) violating unenforceable rules.
  5. Evaluate whether the regional derby is supporting the real purpose of your organization's derby, and continue to hold the regional derby only if it does so. (The real purpose of our derby is not to see which car crosses the finish line first.)
I know, they aren't the kind of suggestions you're hoping for. But I agree with Randy. You can't enforce the rule with pre-race inspections, and you can't enforce the rule with post-race tear-down inspections. It seems to me that your post-race tear-down inspections offer little benefit.

Furthermore, I believe that once a car passes inspection, it should race. Disqualifying a car after the builder(s) can no longer correct the problem is wrong, IMHO.

Furthermore, I think it is unreasonable to expect participants to understand that illegal "bushings" can include clumped graphite that results from certain application techniques. Leaving it to the inspector to determine whether the "bushings" are intentional or inadvertent just compounds this problem.
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psycaz
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by psycaz »

My views come from the side of a parent of a boy who has been accused of cheating at least twice ( first for re-using a car that had been broken the yeat before - said car was at checkin, still with the repair quite visible and the new car having no breaks, second for dad having the nerve to put superglue on a weight that had fallien out and replacing it in the car - instead of the scout).

Both times my son was vindicated, but that stigma haunted him and still bothers him to this day.

As to your particular issue. The portion that I take umbridge is that someone tried to recreate what was supposedly used and it didn't match. If you guys are following Doc Jobe's book (too much if you ask me) and using the pictures, then post pictures here of the actual wheels. Maybe between everyone here we could figure what they actually did. All we have are descriptions of what was in the wheels, no pictures - if there is even a wheel left that is still untouched after the issue. Going by the desfrioptions, I have done that many times just by repeated lubing and runs. It's a build up of graphite itself, nothing more. Wipes out easily with a cotton pipe cleaner. Almost looks like bore damage to some depending how the clumps form together.

Again, I realize you gusy are in an untainable situation. But I feel you must give the scout as much benefit of the doubt as possible. You had some parents admit what they did. That part is easier, but what to do about that boy who says he did nothing wrong.

I will say one thing about what Lucky said. We are considered fast at our local district, but I race one of the leagues where Lucky races. If I were ever to figure out what he does to a car or the other top builders there - two of whom are scouts - their cars would blow the doors off anything in our district by .05 ( that is not a typo). Wanna think about how that would be handled.

As to a real suggestion, did you offer the parent a chance to try to recreate what they did in front of someone. Have a track setup if nec to simulate runs and watch the lubing process or wheel prep process?
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by zeebzob »

Teeeman wrote:
gp, how'd you get past the word filter?

Please edit the post... least, say darned?

My kid may read this and he's 13... (thanks!)


-T

If he's 13, he can probably share a few words worse than this that we may not even know :O
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by *5 J's* »

Lucky13 wrote:
Teeeman wrote:Yep.


-T

(1st was .02 s ahead of the rest, 2nd and 4th were using "old wheels"... 1999 vintage... )

Now that would raise a red flag for me !! Especially at a district or council level. I can see your concern now !! Even though I have to admit, my sons and my buddy's son took 1-3rd last year at our council and all 3 of their cars were .02-.03 faster than the 4th place car...but neverless...I do see your concern.



Lucky 13
Given the use of the "old wheels" the difference in time doesn't seem to raise any red flags to me. The top three in our Pack all ran the new tires. My son was first and was 0.0155 secs over 2nd place and 0.0361 seconds over 3rd place. I guess your racing is just that much closer. We are using a old wooden track of the classic Scout design.
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by gpraceman »

Teeeman wrote:gp, how'd you get past the word filter?

Please edit the post... least, say darned?
damned => condemned or doomed

Certainly was not meant as a curse word.
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FatSebastian
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by FatSebastian »

psycaz wrote:As to a real suggestion, did you offer the parent a chance to try to recreate what they did in front of someone.
Teeeman already "introduced the concept", but it doesn't appear to have been acted upon.
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psycaz
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by psycaz »

FatSebastian wrote:
psycaz wrote:As to a real suggestion, did you offer the parent a chance to try to recreate what they did in front of someone.
Teeeman already "introduced the concept", but it doesn't appear to have been acted upon.
I saw that someone other than the parent/scout involved had tried to recreate something. I didn't think that helps that parent/scout out. I wish they would have taken Teeman up on that offer.

I understand he wasn't there so most of my post isn't directed towards him, definitely not negatively. I hope he can understand that.

It's just I know personally what it's like to have a child accused of cheating when they know they didn't. Even once you prove you didn't, to some it doesn't matter, you're still a cheater.

I mean in my son's case, showing the boy the car from the prior year that still had the break and where the one didn't have any damage, he was convinced my son was cheating because him parent told him so (his words).
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by FatSebastian »

:offtopic:
psycaz wrote:It's just I know personally what it's like to have a child accused of cheating when they know they didn't. Even once you prove you didn't, to some it doesn't matter, you're still a cheater.
Sadly, when you're on top, often there is somebody making unfair accusations, or thinking them if they aren't said. It's happened to us too; once for my son having picked a design that apparently looked like a kit body, other times for thinking outside the box as it relates to the local rules, ...

To us the derby is all for fun (or at least, it should be). If we win it's because our family just worked harder to get in the top spots and we try to not let sore losers diminish from our enjoyment of the competition. I sort of feel sorry for sore losers actually: IMO accusations often stem from the haughtiness of competitive fathers with an unrealistically elevated sense of themselves and are looking for a scapegoat no as not to feel emasculated after the race. (I'm sure doct1010 can tell me if I'm way off base in my assessment . :) )
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