Graphite pads via water?

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Teeeman
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by Teeeman »

We as newcomers in 2005 won our Pack, so we too were given under the table jabs in the weeks that followed.

I responded by sharing, sharing and more sharing... workshops too... and we didn't win by an unbelievable margin, and came in 15th at District that year.

Once I became known as the guy to go to with PWD questions... who would answer... we never heard a single accusation afterwards.

And sharing to me was tremendous fun! I often learned things from the questions.


And... (big round of drumrolling and applause)... I learned pretty much everything I know about PWD from:
a) Stan Pope's free book
b) this site and the people on it

:)

-T
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by *5 J's* »

a) Stan Pope's free book
$10 donation to The W.D. Boyce Council, BSA., which I need to do.
beakerboysracing
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by beakerboysracing »

If you want to see if graphite by itself will clump or look like "graphite pads" as described in this thread, take a white Derbyworx SS wheel, polish the bore, lube it with graphite( whatever brand, it doesn't matter), then run them on a car for ten or twenty runs, then inspect. Relube and Run it even more and the clumps will get larger and more dispersed in the bore.

You won't even need a magnifying glass to see how graphite acts after it is broken in. YOU WILL SEE CLUMPS! :O No oil needed, this is how graphite acts after friction is applied from running the car.

After repeated relubing of wheels, after a while, there will be so much of a build up that the graphite will clump. You can see this with the naked eye on the white wheels. This is why you sometimes have to clean the bore on the wheels after a certain amount of runs, because this build up will slow the car down.
;)

You know, I can't help to think that Don Murphy would be rolling over in his grave if he could see how the district race officials are acting in this district. Have they lost sight of why the Pinewood Derby was created? Seems to me with this post race inspecting, wheel weighing jigs, etc etc etc, that this district is not interested in "... a wholesome, constructive activity that would foster a closer father-son relationship and promote craftsmanship and good sportsmanship through competition."( Don Murphy) All I see here is a bunch of paranoid parents out on a witch hunt to find the "cheaters." Maybe an opportunity for some to embarrass others for their methods of prepping and building a car. How is using water as a transfering agent to lube a wheel bore with graphite using liquid lubricants? :scratching: IT IS GONE, EVAPORATED BY RACE TIME! And do you really think water in the bore of a BSA wheel is gonna make the car faster? Trust me, quite the opposite. :rofl:

Why even have a pre race inspection if you are gonna have a post race teardown? :scratching: What is the point? I guess this district is into busy work. :lol:

Or like Zeezob said, just DQ the fastest cars so the mediocre ones win, because essentially, that is what you are doing. If you are fast, you got to be cheating. Last time I checked, the Cub Scout motto was "Do YOUR BEST." But since you are just gonna DQ the scouts that "DID THEIR BEST" do we really want our kids to "DO THEIR BEST?" Seems rather contradictory to me. Things like PWD teach our kids that there are winners and losers in life, and that if you try hard you can win. If you don't get 1st, next time try HARDER! Not that the winner must be a "cheater."

I'm curious about something. Did the boys who came in 5th thru 8th happen to be related to the race officials? :thinking:

Really guys, think about it, is this what you want to teach your boys? :?
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by rpcarpe »

BBR,
Thanks for sharing. This issue has already been beat beyond death. The District PWD committee was severely hampered by the rules and procedures put in place by the District Committee. Folks are working very hard to correct these problems. Hopefully next year's race will be better because of the improvements being sought.

FYI, only one PWD committee member had a son in the race and he placed 84th out of 131. So please refrain from casting dispersions on good people caught in bad situations.

We've all learned more about sportmanship and Do Your Best from this event. Now we just hope to apply the lessons.
My wife started a new support group... Widows of the Pinewood Derby.
beakerboysracing
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by beakerboysracing »

rpcarpe wrote:BBR,
Thanks for sharing. This issue has already been beat beyond death. The District PWD committee was severely hampered by the rules and procedures put in place by the District Committee. Folks are working very hard to correct these problems. Hopefully next year's race will be better because of the improvements being sought.

FYI, only one PWD committee member had a son in the race and he placed 84th out of 131. So please refrain from casting dispersions on good people caught in bad situations.

We've all learned more about sportmanship and Do Your Best from this event. Now we just hope to apply the lessons.
How was I casting dispersions on anyone? I just asked a question because I have seen that before. :idk:

My suggesting would be to ditch the 31 pages of rules and adopt something a little more user friendly. Otherwise, the drama will continue. Usually one page will do it. If you like, I can send you a copy of our District rules, they are real simple, and easy to understand, and we don't have the kinda stuff happening like this. When stuff like this happens, it does no one any good, especially the boys.

Remember, this is suppose to be a relationship building activity for scout and father, as Don Murphy envisioned. From what I have read here, this district needs to seriously rethink how they facilitate their PWD, or there may come a time when no one wants to be involved with it.
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by gpraceman »

beakerboysracing wrote:How was I casting dispersions on anyone? I just asked a question because I have seen that before. :idk:
Well, your question could easily be interpreted as an insinuation. That is how it struck me.
beakerboysracing wrote:My suggesting would be to ditch the 31 pages of rules and adopt something a little more user friendly.
They have posted multiple times that they are working on a revamp of their rules.


It does seem like this horse has been beaten to death. 11 pages worth.
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beakerboysracing
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by beakerboysracing »

gpraceman wrote:
beakerboysracing wrote:How was I casting dispersions on anyone? I just asked a question because I have seen that before. :idk:
Well, your question could easily be interpreted as an insinuation. That is how it struck me.
beakerboysracing wrote:My suggesting would be to ditch the 31 pages of rules and adopt something a little more user friendly.
They have posted multiple times that they are working on a revamp of their rules.


It does seem like this horse has been beaten to death. 11 pages worth.
And I wonder how the 4 boys feel that got their trophies taken away from them, and labeled cheaters. That will be a hard one to live down for a 7 to 11 year old.

I mean we are talking about little toy wooden cars and 5 dollar plastic trophies aren't we.
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by gpraceman »

beakerboysracing wrote:And I wonder how the 4 boys feel that got their trophies taken away from them, and labeled cheaters. That will be a hard one to live down for a 7 to 11 year old.

I mean we are talking about little toy wooden cars and 5 dollar plastic trophies aren't we.
I quite agree. I just don't see how beating the horse anymore will accomplish anything. They already are working to prevent such problems at their next race.
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psycaz
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by psycaz »

gpraceman wrote:
beakerboysracing wrote:And I wonder how the 4 boys feel that got their trophies taken away from them, and labeled cheaters. That will be a hard one to live down for a 7 to 11 year old.

I mean we are talking about little toy wooden cars and 5 dollar plastic trophies aren't we.
I quite agree. I just don't see how beating the horse anymore will accomplish anything. They already are working to prevent such problems at their next race.
But you have another person trying to say that those "graphite pads" can be formed naturally, with no ill intent.

Future changes do nothing to comfort that boy/those boys who has been labeled a cheater - especially if he/they honestly didn't do anything wrong.

That is the point that is trying to be made I beleive. It is the point I was trying to make before.
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by beakerboysracing »

psycaz wrote:
gpraceman wrote: I quite agree. I just don't see how beating the horse anymore will accomplish anything. They already are working to prevent such problems at their next race.
But you have another person trying to say that those "graphite pads" can be formed naturally, with no ill intent.

Future changes do nothing to comfort that boy/those boys who has been labeled a cheater - especially if he/they honestly didn't do anything wrong.

That is the point that is trying to be made I beleive. It is the point I was trying to make before.
yes, this true, i have seen the exact same "pads" using only graphite. if you want to confirm what i am saying, try it on a white wheel and you will see it.
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by FatSebastian »

beakerboysracing wrote:if you want to confirm what i am saying, try it on a white wheel and you will see it.
I am grateful for BBR's affirming remarks that graphite clumps can form without moisture as one more datum regarding the main point of this topic.
psycaz wrote:It is the point I was trying to make before.
Exactly. IMO the Cubs' perspective was already aptly raised by psy. And while their perspective is not to be diminished, to further belabor some of these aspects seemingly isn't adding new insights to this topic; this is what I took to be gpraceman's point.
Last edited by FatSebastian on Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by psycaz »

FatSebastian wrote:
beakerboysracing wrote:if you want to confirm what i am saying, try it on a white wheel and you will see it.
I am grateful for BBR's affirming remarks that graphite clumps can form without moisture as one more point of reference regarding the main topic of this thread.
psycaz wrote:It is the point I was trying to make before.
Exactly. IMO the Cubs' perspective was already aptly raised by psy. And while their perspective is not to be diminished, to further belabor some of these aspects seemingly isn't adding new insight to the topic; this is what I took to be gpraceman's point.
But it is adding additional information.

The original point of the whole thread was to inform Teeman if it was possible and his concern that a legit car may have been dq'd. viewtopic.php?p=51496#p51496

Someone tried to recreate the circumstance, but couldn't do it to their satisfaction - car remained dq'd.

You have multiple people trying to say that yes, it can happen naturally.

This is information that Teeman was looking for.

I will beat this horse to a pulp if it gets that one boy who may have been wrongly dq'd and lableled a cheater another consideration.

He will never lose that label unless it is determined and acknowledged that the powers that be were wrong. That is the point that keeps getting glossed over.

Great that rules will be changed next year.

But what about that car that may have been legal this year. Does the fact that you have folks coming in here trying to verify that it can happen naturally change the fact or add additional information that may get him a reprieve on his dq?
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by FatSebastian »

psycaz wrote:You have multiple people trying to say that yes, it can happen naturally.
:nod: You can even put me on that list.
psycaz wrote:Does the fact that you have folks coming in here trying to verify that it can happen naturally change the fact or add additional information that may get him a reprieve on his dq?
Based on all available information, I would say no. To quote Teeeman:
The end to this is the DQs stand and the rules are changing so this won't repeat.
I am doubting that anyone who could overturn the DQ is following this topic anymore (if they ever were). If so, enjoy your horse pulp. ;)
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by psycaz »

I messed up the quoting from Fast Seb. Sorry about that.
FatSebastian wrote: To quote Teeeman:
The end to this is the DQs stand and the rules are changing so this won't repeat.
I am doubting that anyone who might be in a position to overturn the DQ's is following this topic anymore, if they ever were. If so, enjoy your horse pulp. ;)

Then they are doing a disservice to the scouts they are supposed to be leading IMHO.

If you ask for help/information, you should see it through. Even if that help isn't enough to start with to help with your decision but then later you get enough information to help, you, should you just ignore it?

How much work is there to really follow this thread. I mean the person who started it is in a position to help that boy. It's not like Teeman is a newcomer and first timer poster here.

There is at least one other person involved in that also was posting in the thread.
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Re: Graphite pads via water?

Post by gpraceman »

psycaz wrote:How much work is there to really follow this thread. I mean the person who started it is in a position to help that boy. It's not like Teeman is a newcomer and first timer poster here.
He might be able to put up a stink (which I know he has already), but I have the impression from more than one source that Teeeman is not in the position to make the final decision. He wasn't even present for the teardown.
psycaz wrote:There is at least one other person involved in that also was posting in the thread.
And that person was there helping out and not in a position to change the outcome.

I can understand you guys being upset about the issue. I am as well and have expressed as much in this thread. But I am not sure that continuing to chew on Teeeman's backside is really going to accomplish anything. Maybe you guys should vent directly to the DE for that district. That might have more of an affect than furthering the discussion here.
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