Do Rules Help?

[resullivan]

I am new and I have seen this topic a little, but most of the opinions are in older threads or spread among many threads. I wanted to try and get to the heart of the issue and that is do PWD rules help? I understand the intent is for the scout with the help of the parent to build the car; however, what I am getting at is do you think that the rules stop someone who is willing to cheat from cheating or are they simply giving them an advantage over someone who will not cheat?

For example our pack/district has the rule that you cannot buy modified wheels/axesl from a third party. I know that you can watch for this to a certain extent, but IMO you are just giving an advantage (possibly) to a person that is willing to cheat more than you are protecting the intent of the event.

IMO the rules should be very simple in that the car should meet certain dimensions and be below a certain weight. I am also ok with using the BSA wheels, and no wet lube to protect the track. Passed these everything else should be guidelines. You would state the intent of the event as well as the expectation of building the car with the scout, but not try and force it.

Additionally, while this is only my second year, I would imagine there are probably several on this site that would put money on a car they built vs any car someone bought or pieced together from a 3rd party. In other words if you know what you are doing and you take your time you should probably be able to out race any mass produced PWD car (I could be wrong about this).

Lastly, the reason I bring this up is last year we made it to district and I saw several cars that were clearly bought. I am not the kind of person that would raise this issue because we are talking about a kids race, and it would be the kid that would suffer. The only solution I can get to is that if a rule is not going to be enforced or is difficult to enforce then you should just get rid of it. Not only that, but it would take care of worrying about pack vs district rules.

As with anything there are pros and cons. IMO the pro that would out weigh any con is that it would stop the accusing and blaming, and increase the focus on improving. If I personally do not want to buy wheels what do I need to do to at least match the ones being bought? (retorical)

[rpcarpe]

Hi!
Good to see another Huntsville user in the forum! Check your e-mail, I'd like to meet you and share opinions/views on our district.

I've been wondering about Rules since I re-caught the bug four years ago. Rules, are like fire. They can be great, they can be destructive.
Two years ago our District suffered under some rules, and kids were DQ'd at district. See the entire long thread on Graphite Pads Via Water.

Researching since then, I've come to appreciate simple rules that open the boundaries of creativity and encourage adult/cub interaction resulting in skills taught, and life lessons learned.

We still meet and hone the rules each year for our Pack, can't speak for District or Council.

[Darin McGrew]

For example our pack/district has the rule that you cannot buy modified wheels/axesl from a third party. I know that you can watch for this to a certain extent, but IMO you are just giving an advantage (possibly) to a person that is willing to cheat more than you are protecting the intent of the event.

We haven't had problems with third-party speed parts. Our rules allow manufacturing irregularities to be removed, but prohibit reshaping the wheels/axles. We hold at least a half-dozen workshops at the church during derby season. We use kits that are not as widely used, so there's less demand to support a market for third-party speed parts. And our wheels and axles are very good right out of the box, requiring little work to be competitive in our derby. Furthermore, we keep the awards modest (small trophies and medals) and don't have a regional derby. The derby itself is the culmination of a month-long project, not the qualifying round for bigger and better things.

IMO the rules should be very simple in that the car should meet certain dimensions and be below a certain weight. I am also ok with using the BSA wheels, and no wet lube to protect the track. Passed these everything else should be guidelines.

We essentially have only four rules: (1) maximum weight; (2) use only the parts in the kit plus adhesives, lubricants, weights, and decorations; (3) no reshaping the wheels/axles; and (4) must fit the track. We include a little more detail on some of those, but that's the gist of it.

Lastly, the reason I bring this up is last year we made it to district and I saw several cars that were clearly bought.

How do you know they were "clearly bought"? Yes, I'm serious. In the past, when I've coordinated the design judging, I noticed judges assuming that cars had to be dad-made, when I knew the kid had done all the hands-on work except for a few cuts with a band saw (adults only) and pouring the molten weight (also adults only). I reminded them that dedicated kids can do excellent work, and besides, the point is for kids to work on a project with their parents or other trusted adults.

[resullivan]

Do I know for a 100% sure they were bought? No, but there was one car I saw that looked like it had the wheels from a website which are graphite coated. They stand out because they were almost purple. There were several cars that were Max V cars. I personally do not have a problem with it, and I did not even try to complain. I am just saying if you can't/won't stop a rule from being broke then why have the rule at all? It only causes dissenion.

BTW, I would be against calling these people out because 1) it is hurting the kid more than anyone, and 2) it only opens the door for everyone to complain. If you only catch one person, that one person is going to try and catch someone else and so on and so on.

[sporty]

resullivan


Couple of quick things here.


It might be, just that, bought parts ect.


Most often, unless a builder know what they are doing with those parts. It often will not make a overall differance for the race.

It takes several things to build a fast car.


We have been in a era for awhile now, where many kids and parents, did not have shop class in schools. Many of those programs got cut in the early 1990's.

Less and less people, even own decent work shop tools ! No matter how loose or strict the rules are, in my 12 years, there is always going to be these issues.

1- People want to do well !! and want there kids to do well !

2- Everyone wants to win !

3-Someone wil always try to cheat.

[Stealthscan]

Yes, rules do help,especially at the Pack level. Our Pack patterns our rules after the District guidelines. Yes, there are clearly dad built and professional cars. If an infraction is caught at the Pack level, we let the boy race, knowing they will not advance if they place. I am on year 8 the 10 year plan for Cubs. We been to District 3 times with my oldest and once so far with my Bear (our race is Saturday). By Webelos 2, my boys doing about 90% of the car. It is frustrating to see them get beat by adults, but we "Did Our Best". That is what we take away from the race.

[resullivan]

Would you do your best without the rules? If next year they said there were no rules would you all of a sudden start making the car for your son? Do the rules change behavior?

[slipperyfrog]

My opinion is make your rules as simplistic and open as possible. On the flip side make the rewards simplistic as well. I'm not big on trophies. Simple ribbons are fine.

What is your opinion on this scenario:

I own a sign business. I have all the software, plotters, printers and laser cutter. My son just finished his fourth car. He now knows how to operate all the equipment and did 95% of this years car. Can I help it if a laser is safer to run than a band-saw? I guarantee it looks like a store bought car and even has a digitally printed vinyl wrap. We can mimic any design you could find on the internet. His ranking went from 11th>4th>1st>1st. Of course he was called a cheater the last two years.

I'm fine with that. He now is excited for his own little business plan to clean his friends wallets of any spending cash they may have. He knows they will move from PWD to skateboards to real cars as the kids progress through school. They will crave his skills. He is focused on Signlab & CorelDraw, not countless hours on Minecraft, Warcraft, and Starcraft. Do you limit his abilities? Do you limit his younger brother who has already learned half as much as his brother without building his first car. A bulls-eye will be on his back every year he builds a car now.

Remember if you limit us and I will call for them to limit anyone that has a certain tool that someone else does not have. No band-saw, well then no one gets to use it. No scroll saw or electric sander, well then...get my drift. Tungsten weights? Well if everyone does not have them then you cannot use them. You see the slippery slope crazy rules usually take you down.

Just to note. We have been very open to help other kids so that being secretive is not an issue. Most times it is turned down. They want a flashy car but don't realize there can be hours and hours of work to get what Sporty spoke about. You car can look great, have store bought parts and still be a loser if you do not know how to put it together. There is education in how to build but there will also always be cheaters.

[Stealthscan]

Would you do your best without the rules? If next year they said there were no rules would you all of a sudden start making the car for your son? Do the rules change behavior?

Rules give us parameters in which to operate. A persons ethics dictate their actions. If the intent of the race were to see who can spend the most money and decimate a group of 9 year old boys, I would not participate. As a parent and Adult Leader, it is my job to teach my boys how to win, or lose gracefully on your own accord. We spend hours in the garage collaborating and refining each years cars. My 8 year old can have discussions on potential energy and COM, with any adult. Yes I am a nerd, but my son can honestly say he was involved with every step of the car build. I believe is the intent of the Pinewood Derby.

[Stealthscan]

Slipperyfrog,
Does your son have an advantage? Yes. Is it unfair? No. IMHO, if your son is spending time in the shop with you and being supervised, then all is good!~ If he is doing the work, using the tools, and getting the results, why would he be called a cheater? I am willing to bet that much forethought and discussion is put into your cars. If so and the rules were followed, take the win and run. Many people will look at their insuffciencies and blame others for them.

[mebetree]

We try basing our rules on the theory that someone shouldn't be able to buy their way to victory. We feel that speed gained by carving the body, weight placement, changing the wheelbase, cleaning up the stock axles, cleaning up the stock wheels, canting axles, railriding with a lifted front wheel, etc offer by far enough areas for the scouts to work on to gain a legitimate advantage over their peers and they aren't going to break the bank in doing so. My kids used all stock pieces and through a lot of time spent on the axles was able to be within 0.003 per race with the winning car.

When you start talking about laser cut bodies, professional vinyl wrap, etc that is all fair game in my book to blow your money on because those items are primarily decorative in nature. Even using tungsten is fair game because the same performance can be achieved with lead, it just won't look as nice.

The big issue we (and I mean I) is in lightening wheels using lathes or other expensive equipment. There just isn't any way an average scout, no matter how much work they put in, can even think to compete with someone whose wheels weigh far less than theirs. So even if a kid is lucky enough to have a dad with a machine shop, they can't do anything to the wheels beyond some light sanding at most.

[Rukkian]

While I do not believe rules should stop creativity, and engineering, I do think rules are definately needed. If the only way to win was either with $50+ wheels/axels and $200 worth of tools, the sport would not be very fun and would loose it's appeal. The best part right now, is that with the kit parts, some basic hand tools, some weights, and some knowledge, you can make a competitive car and have races that are close in my opinion.

Where I do not agree with rules is where there is a rule that cannot be easily checked (non-grooved axels comes to mind), or where it just seems arbitrary (4 on the floor, must use grooves, set distance between wheels).

I think a simple set of rules that are easily enforcable and rule out severely machined parts just make it much more fun.

[ciodude]

I think a simple set of rules that are easily enforcable and rule out severely machined parts just make it much more fun.

I have to agree. Simple rules that promote a level playing field. In Scouts the rules gives boys a framework to practice being Trustworthy and Obedient.

[slipperyfrog]

We try basing our rules on the theory that someone shouldn't be able to buy their way to victory. We feel that speed gained by carving the body, weight placement, changing the wheelbase, cleaning up the stock axles, cleaning up the stock wheels, canting axles, railriding with a lifted front wheel, etc offer by far enough areas for the scouts to work on to gain a legitimate advantage over their peers and they aren't going to break the bank in doing so.

Except many groups including ours work towards clobbering most of what you have mentioned to inane rules. Ours has now banned extended wheel bases, cleaning wheels to a light sanding only, and next year looking at 4 on the floor with no rail riding??? Limiting the rules to even the play field to allow those who put limited effort into their cars to compete is garbage. Plain and simple. I know boys that have learned an incredible amount about the physics of these cars for their ages. I am sick and tired of this perception that everything in life needs to brought down a notch instead of up a notch. Yes my nature is competitive and I am teaching my boys the same. Hence I find most PWD rule lists should be tossed out the window.

When you start talking about laser cut bodies, professional vinyl wrap, etc that is all fair game in my book to blow your money on because those items are primarily decorative in nature.

Thank you for the fair game comment but I would beg to differ on it being primarily decorative. The printed vinyl yes but the laser cut no. Speed is gained by a squared and properly cut body. Precision does matter. However creating this costs pennies for us as it is already set up in my line of work thus not really "blowing" money. The issue is arising as the rules committee wants to ban laser cutting and put it in the same book as a lathe for wheels.

[FatSebastian]

The big issue we (and I mean I) is in lightening wheels using lathes or other expensive equipment.

Although, lightening wheels need not always require expensive equipment.