new member - need rules ideas

[michael]

Hello all!

I found this forum yesterday and was pleasantly surprised at the demeanor of the posters.

I work with an AWANA club and have been asked to help develop some rules for next years Grand Prix / PWD. For years we?ve run a competition with virtually no rules ? size, weight, clubber as primary builder? and have had very few problems. AWANA doesn?t publish any official rules (that I?m aware of) so each chapter is pretty much on their own.

Well this year I asked the GP / PWD judge about moving axles to create extended wheelbase cars with my two kids. He asked me how much I knew about the rules other organizations used and what their rules might say about extending the wheelbase. I explained that I?d done some research and it seemed to be a toss up depending on the organization running the competition. He approved the request since it wasn?t in violation of the scant rules we had.

When another clubber showed up with reshaped wheels I kind of became the default authority given the amount of time I?d spent with my kids and researching AWANA / BSA chapter rules. The judge was sure some parents would have a fit with the shaved wheels.

By providence alone we dodged the bullet! The questionable car didn?t perform well and no one griped. But we were forced to codify for the future.

My philosophy has always been (in my long two year GP / PWD career) to use the event as a teaching tool which my kids. We home school and I love to sit down with my two oldest (7 & 9) and talk thru what different design ideas have going for them. They learn so much science and math from the ?experiment? and the subject captures their interest and imagination like few other learning events can.

I?m delighted to see my seven-year-old son get the idea of potential and kinetic energy; and be able to reason to the conclusion that if the CG is further back in the car, then a greater amount of mass falls a greater distance imposing a greater force on the vehicle (of course expressed in seven year old terms)! What a thrill to see them think! I hope to continue this learning and experimenting process into all sorts of modifications to wheels, axles, body shape? but what about the rules?

Well, all of that to a say I?ve been nominated to suggest the rule set to be used in future years. My tendency is to be as open as possible, limiting as little as possible, thereby leaving as much room for ingenuity as possible.

I?m tired of the fact that we seem to have forgotten about equality of opportunity in favor of equality of outcome.

Why must the clubber use the block that comes in the kit instead of buying one with precision-drilled axel holes?

Why can?t the clubber reshape the wheels, seeking the best performance?

Why use poor quality nails for axles when products exist that allow the kids to focus on things like polishing and experimenting to see which lubricants work best?

I liken the GP / PWD to the great ingenuity prizes of history like X-Prize ? millions of dollars to the first private organization that can launch three people into sub-orbital flight and do it again within three weeks. Imagine the stifling of ingenuity that would occur if the prize were offered for those ?using only the pieces in this kit?. Don?t get me wrong, I think there is room for that kind of competition, but the GP / PWD project can be too formalized by such strict rules.

I know they?re trying to keep it from becoming a parent?s competition but you can?t create enough rules to keep a parent from taking a project away from their kid.

Our AWANA group is also pretty set against creating an ?open? class along with a more strict class.

Thoughts would be much appreciated!

Michael

[Retodd1200]

Welcome to the board Michael. From the looks of things, you could go with open competition style rules and be just fine. May I suggest something on the lines of the WIRL rules. www.concentricks.com/wirl/BuildersCup.htm

[Darin McGrew]

My tendency is to be as open as possible, limiting as little as possible, thereby leaving as much room for ingenuity as possible.

It's a balance between allowing room for ingenuity, and allowing people to change the fundamental nature of the project. Of course, if you ask a hundred people what the fundamental nature of the project is...

On my personal web site, I've posted our derby's rules, plus some of my own philosophy about derby rules.

Why must the clubber use the block that comes in the kit instead of buying one with precision-drilled axel holes?

Why not teach the kids how to use a drill press to assure straight axle holes in the block that came in the kit?

I'd rather teach the kids how to build a better car, than teach the kids where to buy a better car.

Why can?t the clubber reshape the wheels, seeking the best performance?

We allow the removal of manufacturing irregularities. You're still running with standard wheels, but they're as good as they can be.

We don't allow reshaping the wheels. You'd be running with non-standard wheels, that just happen to have used standard wheels for raw material.

Why use poor quality nails for axles when products exist that allow the kids to focus on things like polishing and experimenting to see which lubricants work best?

This hasn't been an issue for us. The CSB axles are pretty good to begin with.

I know they?re trying to keep it from becoming a parent?s competition but you can?t create enough rules to keep a parent from taking a project away from their kid.

No, but we've found that an All Comers division gives the "hands on" parents something to do. It's also provides another way for the adults to teach the kids: first Junior watches Dad work on his (Dad's) car, then Dad watches Junior do the same thing on his (Junior's) car.

That, and communicating the basic expectation that the project is supposed to be something the kids do, with adult instruction, supervision, mentoring, etc.

[Stan Pope]

Darin covered the ground very well.

Here's an idea or so to add on:

As you consider a possible rule, consider if what is allowed as a result becomes sine qua non. Wheel tread shaping pretty much falls in this category... If it is allowed, then it must be done in order to be competitive. Wet lubrucants seem to be in the same arena ... If SB-10 is allowed, then moly-graphite won't be competitive. I would think carefully before opening the rules up that far!

As you develop the rule set, consider communicating about the racing environment, also. Tell about the track and tell about how the racing will be conducted. This should tell newcomers what to expect and may help them understand the physics of track and the demands of the competition, e.g. whether rear weighting is advantageous and how long their lube needs to last.

Lotsa folks with lotsa experience and knowledge around here to help you further.

[RMoose]

Michael,

I think there is value in having basic rules, they give everyone a common starting point. The challenge is to find ways within the rules to maximize the performance of your car. This is a challenge which invites creativity and learning.

Here are the (condensed) rules used by RA groups in North Carolina, just in case you find them helpful:

Car kits must be ordered from the same source.
Cars are to be built with the help of an adult during the current year, April to April, with the current racing year carved or stamped into the bottom.
Cars entered in another organizations events cannot be raced in RA races.
Max. width - 2 3/4 in.
Max. length - 7 3/8 in.
Max. weight - 5 oz.
1/4 in. tapered wheels, not scout wheels, are to be used. Wheel reshaping is not allowed, shaving burrs out is OK but wheels cannot be sanded flat. Wheels cannot extend past either end of the car body.
Axle spacing can be adjusted.
Weights must be securely built into the car, no taped down weights allowed, or any liquid metal (i.e. mercury).
No wheel bearings, washers, or brushings, no springs for car to ride on, no starting devices, & no indentions cut out of the front to give a starting advantage.

Also, We have an adult division race, it is open to any adult who has helped a boy build a car and contributed an amount to a missions project equal to the amount spent on their car. The adult race uses the same rules spelled out for the RA's.

[Cory]

My tendency is to be as open as possible, limiting as little as possible, thereby leaving as much room for ingenuity as possible.

I would echo what Stan, Darin, and Rmoose said: I live in a suburban area with well-educated parents, excellent schools, and lots of very bright kids. Still, if you were the rule maker for my Pack, you would be catering to a minority.

I think you need to cater to the makeup of the group you are serving -- including tool-impaired folks, single-parent kids, and people without a clue -- and after that perhaps temper it with your personal preferences. Rather than vice versa.

[soapbox mode OFF]

Regardless of where you end up, it's even more important that your rules be well-communicated and that your rules be followed.

And there are different ways to do this. Darin's rules are concise. My rules are verbose. But the underlying goal is the same and it is accomplished in both cases -- we make it clear what is expected and what is allowed. And whether it is with tedious inspections or by Scout's honor, our rules get followed.

[MathGuy]

My philosophy has always been (in my long two year GP / PWD career) to use the event as a teaching tool which my kids. We home school and I love to sit down with my two oldest (7 & 9) and talk thru what different design ideas have going for them. They learn so much science and math from the ?experiment? and the subject captures their interest and imagination like few other learning events can.

I could not get my homeschooled 7 & 9 year old into the science of the PWD. Anytime we talked about more advance concepts, they really haven't been interested, (IE no Passion other than theme, shape and colors). We did a lesson on physics of PWD it in our Webelos den meetings (9 y/o), and it went OK. But It is sometimes frustrating to get a 6-10 yo to become natural scientist of the PWD.

We participate in both Scouts and Awana's, and since Awana's main focus on a learning bible truth and cub scouts tend to be instilling confidence and character in boys in a more secular way. I have always expected more competitive "enviroment" in scouting, especially since pack winners often go on to "district" or council races. I know our Awana's race is a one a done sort of thing, that is just my own feeling.

This puts the focus on the rules, is it to make it fair or to legalize advantages some parents will do for there in order to beat everyone else. All advantages I list hear would never come from kids age 6-9, they come from parents. : Extended Wheel Base, SB-10, Wheel Modfications, etc.

Based on my experience I would think that less than 40% of the parents would even want or can understand the "entire science" (IE beyond rear weight and graphite) behind fast PWD cars, and less than 4% of the boys. Most parents want to help there boys shape and paint a car and see how it goes, and that is an accomplishment for the parents and kids. And when they do race, all of the families hope to win, regardless of the relative quality of there work.

Most rules don't constrain 6-9 year olds(few exceptions such as ALEX), they constrain the parents. (especiall pineheads like us) Given this, I would feel more comfortble with rules that "even" the playing field for an Awana's group. So more towards the standard wheel base, graphite blend only lube, and no wheel or axle modifications. This keeps the competition light, but a well built, well aligned car will still "rule the day", but it also doesn't discourage other families.

Again, 8 year olds don't ask there parents if they can go buy a drill press or a lathe or SB-10. The standard lesson of lubricant such as graphite helps the cars go faster is probably a fine lesson for the typical 6-9 year old. Once the children get into older ages, I think more liberal rules should be allowed. But boy scouts don't build cars. (but 30+ year olds do)

[michael]

Thank you all for kind replies.

It seems like much of the focus on limiting modifications is based on the age of the participants. From what I can gather Boy Scouts start participating at a younger age than our AWANA program. Although younger kids can make cars they can?t compete until they?re 8 years old.

So our competitive participants are between 8 and 12 years old, and at that age, many are ready for more aggressive car design.

I will take a more restrictive and a less restrictive set of rules to our GP / PWD judge and let him decide how open our competition should be. If we see things starting to get out of hand, we can always reign in the rules in future years.

A side question if I may. I?ve seen the disallowance of suspension apparatus in many rule sets. Curious why one would want to use a suspension system ? what benefit would it offer?

Thanks again for your thoughtful responses.

[Stan Pope]

I will take a more restrictive and a less restrictive set of rules to our GP / PWD judge and let him decide how open our competition should be. If we see things starting to get out of hand, we can always reign in the rules in future years.

If the competition is completely local ... the racers don't qualify to race in area or state-wide competitions, then you are free to set rules to suit your local organization. If there is areaor state wide competition, then they will have rules, and you will want your youth's cars to comply with them.

A side question if I may. I?ve seen the disallowance of suspension apparatus in many rule sets. Curious why one would want to use a suspension system ? what benefit would it offer?

Track irregularities cause energy losses that increase as the amount of mass that they move and the shortness of time in which they move it.

[Darin McGrew]

I will take a more restrictive and a less restrictive set of rules to our GP / PWD judge and let him decide how open our competition should be.

Keep in mind that it isn't just a matter of how restrictive/open the rules are. There's also a matter of how concise/verbose the rules are. The rules my derby uses are very concise, but in their simplicity they prohibit many of the techniques discussed here (e.g., wheel coning, axle shimming). Other rules could be just as concise, more verbose, or much more verbose, and that is fairly independent of whether they're more open or more restrictive.

If we see things starting to get out of hand, we can always reign in the rules in future years.

Just a word of warning: Advertise such changes heavily, and well in advance. We've had people get very upset when we changed something and they didn't notice the change despite our publicity efforts. You can't just advertise "here are this year's rules" because experienced derbyists won't pay attention. You have to advertise "here are some important changes from last year's rules", and especially target the experienced derbyists.

I?ve seen the disallowance of suspension apparatus in many rule sets. Curious why one would want to use a suspension system ? what benefit would it offer?

When the car hits a bump, some of its forward-motion kinetic energy is converted into up-down kinetic energy. Or--depending on the bump--sideways kinetic energy, rotational kinetic energy, or some combination.

Once forward-motion kinetic energy is converted to some other kind of kinetic energy, there is no way to get it back. And when you lose forward-motion kinetic energy, you slow down. So the goal is to lose as little forward-motion kinetic energy as possible, since there isn't much the derbyist can do about the bumps in the track.

If the car is suspended, then the center of mass moves less when the car hits a bump. It takes less energy to move the center of mass a shorter distance, so you lose less forward-motion kinetic energy.