Frustrated by Rules Ambiguity

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Topspin.D
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Frustrated by Rules Ambiguity

Post by Topspin.D »

I'm looking for a little advice about how to approach our car builds for next year given the ambiguity of our district rules (pack rules are even worst - follow instructions in the box... no more guidance provided). Last year we built a decent (but very conservative) car, but were not as competitive at the district level as we hoped. Since then I've been reading the message boards like crazy and am planning a much more competitive car.

This gets to the problem... Now I've got lots of ideas that I would like to implement, but cannot get clear yes or no answers from the district administrator or the race organizers. Pretty much every answer is "could a scout do that?".

Well... thanks to you guys and my experience as a woodworker (and frankly the fact that my kids have been woodworking several years with me)... the answer to almost everything is yes... I can create a jig or set-up so that my scout can do almost everything (with supervision) that I'd like to implement. Rules also unclear about aftermarket BSA based products (like wheels - which I know some used).

Examples of things we're thinking about doing:
- Drilling canted axels
- Using lightened wheels (with BSA marking still intact) or drilling the sidewall like you see on razor wheels
- Running rears backwards (will expose that they've been lightened) with lightweight foam in them) w/ rear fins
- Creating spacers (of wood coated with nail hardener) for rears or using an embedded spacer (material tbd)
- Only having 3 wheels on the car w/ a guide fin
- Use Coach's Secrete Lube (which is goes on wet and is dried prior to racing) in place of graphite

Any advice on how to approach this... and ensure we don't get disqualified at inspection?

Here are the rules
http://www.seattlebsa.org/index.php?opt ... 400&Itemid" target="_blank
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FatSebastian
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Re: Frustrated by Rules Ambiguity

Post by FatSebastian »

Topspin.D wrote:Examples of things we're thinking about doing:
:thinking: You did not mention rail riding.
Topspin.D wrote:- Drilling canted axels
Your rules state "The wheel surface must remain flat." Within context, this could imply that the tread surface must ride flat, so canting would need to be minimal (less than 2 degrees).
Topspin.D wrote:- Using lightened wheels (with BSA marking still intact) or drilling the sidewall like you see on razor wheels
Your rules state "Cars with illegally modified [...] wheels will be disqualified" so it is possible to illegally modify them. The rule "Burrs on the wheels may be removed and imperfections may be sanded smooth" suggests the limits of what is allowed in terms of wheel modification.
Topspin.D wrote:- Running rears backwards (will expose that they've been lightened) with lightweight foam in them) w/ rear fins
:unsure: I'm not sure that there are speed benefits with this. Even if there was some marginal benefit, they may not be worth the risk of drawing unusual attention to your son's car.
Topspin.D wrote:- Creating spacers (of wood coated with nail hardener) for rears or using an embedded spacer (material tbd)
Your rules state "...washers... and modifications to the axle holes are prohibited. "Spacers" may be interpreted as "washers" or a "modification to the axle holes." (I am also unsure as to what benefit spacers provide.)
Topspin.D wrote:- Only having 3 wheels on the car w/ a guide fin
Clearly a scout could do this; I would ask. If you are rail-riding, it probably won't matter that much. A fin could be interpreted as an "illegally modified" wheel.
Topspin.D wrote:- Use Coach's Secrete Lube...
This does not appear against your rules.
Topspin.D wrote:Any advice on how to approach this... and ensure we don't get disqualified at inspection?
We have found it productive to pose questions like "Will race officials be checking or inspecting for such-and-such?" and "Have race officials ever disqualified a car for such-and-such?" This tends to force the official(s) to think about the ambiguity from the perspective of rules enforcement past and present, rather than whether your child's car will be a legal or illegal one. It also helps to correspond by email and save the correspondence in case there is a question later as to what you were told.
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5kidsracing
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Re: Frustrated by Rules Ambiguity

Post by 5kidsracing »

Topspin.D wrote:I'm looking for a little advice about how to approach our car builds for next year given the ambiguity of our district rules (pack rules are even worst - follow instructions in the box... no more guidance provided). Last year we built a decent (but very conservative) car, but were not as competitive at the district level as we hoped. Since then I've been reading the message boards like crazy and am planning a much more competitive car.

This gets to the problem... Now I've got lots of ideas that I would like to implement, but cannot get clear yes or no answers from the district administrator or the race organizers. Pretty much every answer is "could a scout do that?".

Well... thanks to you guys and my experience as a woodworker (and frankly the fact that my kids have been woodworking several years with me)... the answer to almost everything is yes... I can create a jig or set-up so that my scout can do almost everything (with supervision) that I'd like to implement. Rules also unclear about aftermarket BSA based products (like wheels - which I know some used).

Examples of things we're thinking about doing:
- Drilling canted axels
- Using lightened wheels (with BSA marking still intact) or drilling the sidewall like you see on razor wheels
- Running rears backwards (will expose that they've been lightened) with lightweight foam in them) w/ rear fins
- Creating spacers (of wood coated with nail hardener) for rears or using an embedded spacer (material tbd)
- Only having 3 wheels on the car w/ a guide fin
- Use Coach's Secrete Lube (which is goes on wet and is dried prior to racing) in place of graphite

Any advice on how to approach this... and ensure we don't get disqualified at inspection?

Here are the rules
http://www.seattlebsa.org/index.php?opt ... 400&Itemid" target="_blank
As long as you are running on center guided track that is in decent condition I would definately railrun and cant the rear wheels. Bend the DFW and adjust the steering for 4" of drift in 4 ft. I don't see where 4 wheels are required so I would run 3 wheels and a guide. That will be faster than 4 wheels....

Regarding the wheels.... Those rules do not say what is legal or illegal.. They say illegally modified wheels will be disqualified, but I don't see what modifications are legal. You may not reduce the diameter, but you may sand them smooth to remove imperfections? If I sand the OD hen I am reducing the OD right? Anyway you will have to work with your PWD committee to figure out wht they are talking about...

If you figure out that you are able to run lighten "with all markings intact" wheels then I wouldn't turn them around unless they are under around 1.5 grams. You will run faster with them installed normally. Only run them reversed if the tread is so thin that it flexes when the car goes through the track curve.

Figure out how to polish the wheel bore and burnish correctly and then run graphite..... Hob-E-Lube or Max-V in my experience is faster than what you mentioned.
For my "Pinewood Story" go to: http://5kidsracing.webs.com/index.htm
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Re: Frustrated by Rules Ambiguity

Post by whodathunkit »

I would ask the pwd committee questions about why.. the no rules on kit types..
And why rule #4 states all cars must have been made dering the current scouting year from the official kit see (9 below.) because it reads..
Body- Aftermarket (pinecar.ect) bodies are allowed.. drilling axle holes is allowed as long as position
douse not protrude past the block on either end.
And then about the body specifications..#6
looks like a good one..1/4 clearance..what happend to 3/8 (?)

And why these different kit types.. must use only The BSA wheels.. with the BSA lettering molded into the sideswalls.

Mark.
What type of automobile can be spelled the same forwards & backwards?
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FatSebastian
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Re: Frustrated by Rules Ambiguity

Post by FatSebastian »

5kidsracing wrote:Those rules do not say what is legal or illegal..
Stan once aptly pointed out that rules often tend to carry an implied perspective of either what is allowed or what is disallowed. That is, if the rules tend to describe what is permitted, then the unmentioned may be implicitly prohibited. Similarly, if the rules primarily describe what is prohibited, then the unmentioned is implicitly permitted. (See this thread as one exploratory example.)

The apparent ambiguity of these rules could be explained if they were (originally) written from the perspective of what is allowed. As evidence, many of the prohibition-type rules are restatements of the rules from the box, whereas other rules tend to emphasize what is allowed. But unfortunately this is not a hard and fast observation as these rules are still a bit of a mixture of allowed and disallowed. Consider Rule 8 under Wheels and Axle Assembly: "Dry Lubricant can be applied only to the axle wheel area. No application of lubricant is permitted on exposed surfaces of the wheels." Here the rule says explicitly what lubrication points are allowed, and then clarifies with an example of what is forbidden. Consider Rule 2 under the same section: "You may not narrow the wheels, reduce the diameter or round them to reduce surface friction. The wheel surface must remain flat." Here the rule says explicitly what tread shape is intended ("flat"), and clarifies in advance with descriptions of modifications that would be forbidden. Consider Rule 7: "Burrs on the axles may be removed and polished if desired. No other modifications such as grooving, tapering, etc… are permitted!" Again, this a statement of what is allowed, followed with examples of what is forbidden. Such mixed wording might have resulted from people going against what is allowed in specific ways, and thus for clarity examples of prohibited work were added.
5kidsracing wrote: They say illegally modified wheels will be disqualified, but I don't see what modifications are legal.
Now, if these rules intend to focus on what is allowed, then the rule "Burrs on the wheels may be removed and imperfections may be sanded smooth" suggests the limit of what modifications are legal (use of the word "may" implies "you are permitted"). Noticeable wheel lightening would not be allowed then, but only the rules committee or derby coordinator could say for sure.

The rules on inspection also concern me. The rule "Post race inspections may be conducted on all win[n]ing cars" goes against the Rules-In-The-Box and thereby the intentions of BSA for Pinewood Derby. "Questions regarding rule interpretations are to be decided by the inspection team. The inspection team may at their discretion request additional input from one or more individuals." This also seems (to me) to again imply that perhaps the rules were originally intended to present the viewpoint of what is allowed; unfortunately, the inspection rules almost make it sound like they make up what is impermissible as they go along.
Topspin.D
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Re: Frustrated by Rules Ambiguity

Post by Topspin.D »

Thanks FS I will take the approach of asking questions... some what indirectly by asking about inspection process.

To answer your other questions...
You did not mention rail riding.
Correct, I'm going to do that, but assumed that was a given because I'll only be running 3 wheels. Last year there weren't any cars that only had 3 wheels attached. I would be doing it to save weight and help with COM.
Your rules state "The wheel surface must remain flat." Within context, this could imply that the tread surface must ride flat, so canting would need to be minimal (less than 2 degrees).
I'm pretty sure that this isn't about whether canting is ok... it's about not having "H" or other shaped rules. Most of the fastest cars last year were clearly running canted axels.

Re. Spacer - When you run the wheels backwards it appears that the concensus is you need to keep them off the body and center guide rails - lettering catching is worst than polished inner rim rubbing against the body or the guide rails.

5 Kids:
rules do not say what is legal or illegal
You're right... so no clear guidance about lightened wheels - I was thinking of using 1g or 1.4g speed wheels - thus the reason to run them reversed.

I was going to try the other lube based on testing that Sporty did, but would be interested in getting more information from you if you will share.
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Re: Frustrated by Rules Ambiguity

Post by Topspin.D »

I should give a little more context... given where I live... you really have to incorporate all the tricks if you want to win at district. I'm really big on not cheating / level playing field, but want to compete.

Lots of Boeing (engineers and machinists - exotic materials, tools, time), Microsoft/other software (engineers/techies with tools and technical know how), and Phillips Medical Systems (more engineers/techies) in my area.
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Re: Frustrated by Rules Ambiguity

Post by FatSebastian »

Topspin.D wrote:Last year there weren't any cars that only had 3 wheels attached.
:thinking: Given the competitiveness of your area, I might wonder if others know that it has already been deemed illegal? :idk: (FWIW, we once attempted racing at the Scout level with a peg; while legal, the trackmaster suggested the pegged car might be staged backwards!)
Topspin.D wrote:Most of the fastest cars last year were clearly running canted axles.
:thumbup: Good observation!
Topspin.D wrote:Re. Spacer - When you run the wheels backwards...
Gotcha. We've never raced with severely lightened wheels so we've never run with wheels inside-out, spacers, etc. (BTW, my reservation was with filling in the wheel; I would be concerned that the added mass moment of inertia would offset the aerodynamic advantage.)
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Re: Frustrated by Rules Ambiguity

Post by resullivan »

@Topspin

This will be our 3rd year and this is something I was concerned with. My answer to your question about rules is it depends. In my case we have raced at the pack level, district level, and council level. At all 3 levels the organizers have not been "derbyheads." In other words they did not know much about what makes a car fast. Normally there are people volunteering that do; however, it really comes down to the head person. The fact that this person can change every year only adds to the confusion. We have got away with ignoring the vague rules because of this. I did not just ignore them for no reason, but it was a combination of my experience from the first year and questions I asked. I tried to ask more questions like "what will you be checking for, what would disqualify a car?" I tried to avoid specific questions. Right or wrong the more I found out the person didn't know pushed me in the direction of my decision.

Our experience has told us as long as your meet the weight, length, width, and height requirements then you should be ok.
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Re: Frustrated by Rules Ambiguity

Post by resullivan »

Oh, and I want to add that you should try getting involved. They are always looking for volunteers. I have found that most volunteers more or less get "stuck." I will most likely be running our pack derby this year.
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Re: Frustrated by Rules Ambiguity

Post by SirStorm »

I would also encourage you to "get involved". Maybe it is time to rewrite the rules! It sounds like, in the effort to "make it fair" the rules have morphed into a mish mash. Sometimes it is time to scrap the existing rules and rewrite with strong clear reasons and explanation to back them up. I used a letter addressed to the parents and leaders explaining the background behind each rule. This was a lesson in sportsmanship. We almost had no rule violations after I did that. Inspection was so much smoother and faster.
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Re: Frustrated by Rules Ambiguity

Post by FatSebastian »

SirStorm wrote:I used a letter addressed to the parents and leaders explaining the background behind each rule. This was a lesson in sportsmanship.
Many of us might find it instructive if you posted (the explanations within) your letter, perhaps as a separate topic.
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Re: Frustrated by Rules Ambiguity

Post by SirStorm »

Cool, I'm willing to do that. Thanks for the invite.
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Re: Frustrated by Rules Ambiguity

Post by Topspin.D »

Thanks all for the advice. At the pack level everyone is really easy going and they pretty much allow anything that's not a blatant violation (mostly weight), but I did see several cars disqualified last year at the district level where the inspection was more involved. As I've asked questions from the organizer I got annoyed unclear responses. I will keep trying, but I'm thinking we're going to have to go down the path of creating 2 cars (1 conservative and 1 less so) to take to the race. Pulling wheels off and replacing them after failing inspection doesn't seem like a formula for success.
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Re: Frustrated by Rules Ambiguity

Post by FatSebastian »

Topspin.D wrote:As I've asked questions from the organizer I got annoyed unclear responses. I will keep trying...
Organizers often feel that their rules are clear enough, and exploration of the rules' boundaries might be interpreted as someone planning something sneaky who needs to be deflected. I agree that you should not push too hard if resistance is encountered.
Topspin.D wrote:I'm thinking we're going to have to go down the path of creating 2 cars (1 conservative and 1 less so) to take to the race.
Extreme caution should be exercised because your district includes this sweeping rule: "The inspectors have the right to disqualify those cars... for any other reason that constitutes foul play." Consider this story where an inspector concludes "there is only one reason you bring TWO cars to district;" the substitution of a B-car after failing inspection might be interpreted as an acknowledgement that you knew the A-car was illegal according to the rules and were therefore trying to cheat.
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