Hints for detecting lightened wheels?

[birddog]

Sorry, still not following how that rule limits wheel diameter by referencing wheel features that must be present. I dont' know what a "tread mark" is, but then again, I'm no wheel expert, which makes the "go/no-go" gauges so easy to use for a novice.

Do the "official BSA" and "made in usa" markings need to be present inside the wheel?

birddog

[Stan Pope]

Sorry, still not following how that rule limits wheel diameter by referencing wheel features that must be present. I dont' know what a "tread mark" is, but then again, I'm no wheel expert, which makes the "go/no-go" gauges so easy to use for a novice.

Do the "official BSA" and "made in usa" markings need to be present inside the wheel?

birddog

Look at a wheel from the outside from a location on the wheel axis. Near the center you see "spokes". Near the outer periphery you see "tread marks". Some folks refer to them as "serrations."

In various years over the evolution of wheels we have said "some portion of some of the tread marks must be present", "some portion of all of the tread marks must be present", and "all of each tread mark must be present", indicating various degrees of tread removal and accounting for variance in wheel manufacture.

In all cases, their presence is easily ascertained either by eye or by touch (by dragging a fingernail along the corner of the tread and feeling for vibration).

As the "official BSA" and "made in usa" markings are not on an area of the wheel which is allowed to be worked, they must be present.

[FatSebastian]

Does anyone have any suggestions for catching those that have maybe just a bit taken off?

Have you considered Teeeman's wheel-weigher? (Here's another version.)

... I dont' know what a "tread mark" is...

Some folks refer to them as "serrations."

Also known as "fluting".

[birddog]

Thanks guys. I never knew those little "bumpy circles" on the outer edge of the wheel had a name! I learned something new today! Now I understand much better.

Given I am a "pine head" and had never heard the term, I wonder how many "novices" read those rules and don't know what a "tread mark" is either? I'll bet the number is high.

I may start a different thread for what I'm about to say next, but given all the issues related to wheel treatments, I wonder if it would just be simpler for rule sets that allow "Light sanding of the wheel treads to remove irregularities", to say that no modification of the wheel tread at all is allowed.

I have to say, I don't mess with light sanding of the wheel treads because when I first tried it, it was too easy to make the wheel worse than it started out. Since then, I've not touched the tread on any of our wheels and we've managed to do very good. Maybe all this fuss about allowing wheel sanding to try to remove irregularities made sense with older wheels, but with newer wheels may not be worth the effort and potential risk of damage (or denial at inspection)?

birddog

[Stan Pope]

Thanks guys. I never knew those little "bumpy circles" on the outer edge of the wheel had a name! I learned something new today! Now I understand much better.

Given I am a "pine head" and had never heard the term, I wonder how many "novices" read those rules and don't know what a "tread mark" is either? I'll bet the number is high.

Good point! I'll go look at the accompanying FAQ and see if there is explanation or image, as there is for identifying the portions of the wheel that can be worked.

[FatSebastian]

Maybe all this fuss... made sense with older wheels, but with newer wheels may not be worth the effort and potential risk...

Agree.

[Stan Pope]

In light of this, I disagree.

[ah8tk]

Here is a drawing we used in our rules a couple of years back, it shows what you could work and what you cannot work. This seemed to work well, for the people that need visual help (don’t know if this one is worth a thousand words).

[Stan Pope]

Here is a drawing we used in our rules a couple of years back, it shows what you could work and what you cannot work. This seemed to work well, for the people that need visual help (don’t know if this one is worth a thousand words).

Looks good!

Might use stronger language on no-work zones. For instance, saying that "lettering must be visible..." suggests that there are areas of the wheel nearby that you can mess with. It is not as strong as saying "The only parts of the wheel that you may alter are X, Y, Z; don't alter any other parts" (in more precise language, of course) but that is a kinda fine point

[Noskills]

Our district rules do not provide detailed wheel specs
"Wheels may be lightly sanded to smooth out molding imperfections on the tread area. This light sanding is the only modification allowed. Beveling, tapering, thin sanding, wafering or lathe turning of the wheels is prohibited."

In the future I would like to remove the "light sanding" rule.

So basically our wheels should not be lightened. I can catch the really thin ones, the ones with a lip on the inside but I think I need a measuring device if I see on that looks sort of thinned. Would the MaxV Go/No-Go help here? (can this be used on fender cars?)

Noskills

[birddog]

I've got some experience with the MaxV Go/No-Go gauge as we used it in our Pack and District races this year. I even clarified our wheel mod rule to say that this gauge would be used to inspect all tires so folks would know exactly what we would be testing.

I inspected about 100 cars this year with the gauge. It caught 4 cars that had wheel diameters which were too small. There was one car with a fender type that prevented me from measuring it. I suspect cars with nellie faye style fenders would be hard to measure with the gauge. I'm not sure calipers would be any better, but I didn't want to use different methods, so just stuck to the MaxV gauge. It can measure most typical cars with fenders, but not all styles. I wasn't going to ask for a wheel to be pulled to conduct the measurement, so I just let it pass.

birddog

[FatSebastian]

There was one car with a fender type that prevented me from measuring it.

A situation that might lead to a rule against fenders?

...so just stuck to the MaxV gauge.

Such a gauge does not test for the removal of material from the back side of the tread. I have wondered if it would be possible to take an impression (think plaster or clay) of the tread from the backside of a "barely-legal" wheel for use as a go/no-go gauge for "thinned" treads. Specifically, if the tread fits from the backside into the impression, then it is too thin and thus a "no-go". You'd only need a chord 1/3 to 1/4 of the wheel circumference to make such a gauge.

[Noskills]

I think in the future I would like add that any irregularity on visual inspection could lead to a wheel being pulled and weighted. As I said, if the weight is 2-2.5 gm it will be tough to tell that it was thinned (inside or out) and if you have the impression that it was you ask to have it pulled an weighed. Here you must then define lightened; maybe <2.4 gm (what would be 2 standard deviations below the mean stock wheel weight)?
Noskills

[birddog]

Here is the exact text regarding this topic from our rules. I added all this as "new" rules this past year:

4. The minimum outside diameter of all wheels, as measured by an official “go / no-go” gauge during inspection is 1.180 inches. If you leave the wheel alone, it will meet this specification.
5. The minimum wheel width of all wheels, as measured by an official “go / no-go” gauge during inspection is 0.360 inches. If you leave the wheel alone, it will meet this specification.
6. The minimum weight of each wheel, which may be measured after racing at the discretion of the racing officials is 2.6 grams. If you leave the wheel alone, it will meet this specification.


The part on wheel weight is there mainly as a "toothless threat". I just can't see asking anyone to pull a wheel during inspection. It could easily cause their tuning to get messed up and that doesn't seem fair if all I have is a "suspicion" that something is amiss. I also cannot see pulling a wheel AFTER racing is completed and disqualifying somebody after the race has been conducted. I don't mind people thinking that could happen, but I just don't see us ever doing it. The time to fail a car for rules violations is before the race, not after, in my view.

birddog

birddog

[FatSebastian]

The part on wheel weight is there mainly as a "toothless threat". I just can't see asking anyone to pull a wheel during inspection.

In case you missed the mention of Teeeman's wheel-weigher from earlier in this topic, it is possible to weigh a wheel without removing it from the car. So this "threat" need not be "toothless".