HELP NEEDED

[Stephen's Dad]

Time Sensitive

A friend of mine in on their Packs Pinewood Committee. Based on some prior experiences he has reason to believe that a car they just checked in has aftermarket axles. His Packs rules do nor permit this. However the rules do not require that axle tips be visible & therefore the tips are NOT visible. The only way to insure that real BSA kit axles were used is to remove one for inspection. My friend would never risk removing one for fear of disrupting the cars alignment which would be devastating if no rules violation was found.

I told him that he must contact the builder & request they remove a wheel/axle in his presence preferably with the Cubmaster.

Has anyone ever had to force an axle removal to facilitate an inspection? How did it go?

Also (same car):

The car also has no visible signs of graphite. Because the cars builder has so much experience, there is every reason to believe the use of Nyoil or SB10 has been employed instead of graphite which is the only permissible lubricant. We discussed using a slip of thin blotter paper to detect a liquid lube (forbidden by rules) but if the lube was properly applied (likely) then no residue should come out.

Can a quick non-destructive test reveal the use of Nyoil 2 or SB10?



He has until this evening to act. All help & comments will be appreciated.

[Mr. Slick]

The way I have handled things like this is to just ask the scout, and then later the parent, about the suspect parts/practices.

People usually have one of the following reactions:
A. Confess and accept responsibility
B. Agree but blame ignorance of the finer points of the rules
C. Deny the suspect behavior

Cases A and B usually resolve before the current race.

If case C happens, you have a couple of choices to make.

I. Car's race status?
1. Allow the car to race, if so, what about trophies?
2. DQ the car and not let them race.

II. Force visual inspection?
1. Things are found to be up and up and they will be truely indignant
2. Things are shady - undetectable - Both parties feel real bad.
3. Things are as feared - they will probably leave and not return to scouting.

What ever is done should be done in a respectful manner, rarely is the cub the one "leading" the shady processes.

I try and be prepared with several nice sets of axles/wheels/lube so the changes could be made if needed.

Maybe a discussion can be had and all can pray for a better entry next year.

[joe]

I think our district handles this pretty well. They are lax on inspection to begin with, but I don't like the theory that you are guilty until proven innocent. We let everybody race. If "something" on the car is illegal, and the car places in the top 8, they don't get a trophy. If you suspect illegal axles, let the car race, pull the axle after the race if the car places.
If your district has no specific rule about showing the axle tip, ours does not, it is not fair to pull the axle before the race.

[Stephen's Dad]

Joe,

Perhaps this is their best approach. I would hate to see them tampering with wheels & axles before the race. I'm going to pass this along.

Mr. Slick has the right idea when time is on the Pack's side. I've been in the same position myself this year but the Dad came clean & his son ended up building a fine car in our workshops.

These guys race tomorrow. So if the Scout/Dad came clean tonight there would be very little time to reconcile the matter. However one night should be time enough to do a wheel/axle job in a well equipped shop.

I'm glad this isn't my Pack.

Thanks...Steve

[2kids10horses]

About the lack of graphite... Anyone who has lubed with graphite would have some graphite on the wheels. It would be clinging to the spokes, and the inside of the wheel.

Anyone who uses graphite to lube would not have a serious objection to a 'puff or two' of Hob-E-lube applied to each of the axles, as long as they were allowed to spin them in. This, of course, would make mud of NyOil or Krytox!

You didn't specify why the check-in official suspected illegal axles, but pulling the axles is a bit unfair unless all participants also pull axles. I think a simple questioning of, "Are all the parts, block, wheel, and axles offiial BSA?"

If they look the official in the eye and say, "Yes", then I'd pass it.

If I suspected illegal oil lube, I'd say, "Oh, it looks like you forgot to lube your car! Would you like me to lube it with Hob-E-Lube for you?" Depending upon the reaction you get, you'd know if they've done something illegal.

At my Pack, when I handed out the cars, I told everyone the rules, and yes, there are illegal speed items, including oil, but I know about them, and don't try to cheat. No one did. I dunno about District, I wasn't the check-in guy. (Thank goodness!)

Tough situation. I hope it turns out ok.

2K10H

[Stephen's Dad]

I haven't seen this car. But my friend would know legal from aftermarket axles. He said the head looks too small & clean but with a dimple in the center.

I like the helpful "puff" offer. Can you imagine the look???

[CuriousGeorge]

I know this probably won't help this year (a little late but still a thought), but next year you could state in the rules that the winning cars of each division "may" have their axles pulled and checked when the race is over (and before trophies are handed out). That would bring out any foul play and give them plenty of time to re-align the car before districts. BUT.... if you do it to one car, be sure to do it to all of the cars that placed. And if you suspect a specific car of foul play... don't pull it's axles first, throw it in the mix somewhere.

[Stephen's Dad]

George,

My buddy is in the same District as me. I am now on the Deistrict Committee. I'll be proposing some changes to the rules for next year. I don't want the rules to restrict creativity. Rather if they are written well, creativity will flourish. But internet sales of Speed axles may suffer a little.

[RacerRusty]

I know this probably won't help this year (a little late but still a thought), but next year you could state in the rules that the winning cars of each division "may" have their axles pulled and checked when the race is over (and before trophies are handed out). That would bring out any foul play and give them plenty of time to re-align the car before districts. BUT.... if you do it to one car, be sure to do it to all of the cars that placed. And if you suspect a specific car of foul play... don't pull it's axles first, throw it in the mix somewhere.

Why not just amend the rules with something along these lines.

"Before Official standings are confirmed and trophies awarded, all cars placing will be required to remove a wheel and axle, to be selected by the Judges, so that inspections, that could not be carried out before the race practical, may be completed. Any cars placing that fail this inspection will be disqualified and all cars ranking below it shall be advanced one level."

Now I'm not a word smith so I'm sure it can be worded better than that, but you get the idea. This would facilitate several inspections that were previously difficult if not impossible.

1. Legal axles.
2. Legal lube. (Well maybe anyway)
3. Bushing or bearings inside the wheel hub.

Such a rule has the advantage of not singling anyone out (Especially if the suspicions are wrong). And if such a rule exists then it should be known so griping should be held to a minimum.

I personally would hate to see such a rule show up here next year. For the simply reason, the fact that its needed is sad. Other wise I personally would not care. After the pack races we would be pulling all the axels and wheels anyway to recondition them for the district races. After district races the car is done anyway.

(Braces) Ok. Good idea? Bad idea? Other points of view?

[Darin McGrew]

Good idea? Bad idea? Other points of view?

Rereading the thread, it seems there are two issues: third-party parts (axles) and prohibited lubricants.

In other threads, I've already commented on the issue of prohibited lubricants. The short version is that I think it's better not to restrict lubricants.

Re: third-party parts
You can inspect the axle tips to identify completely non-standard third-party axles, but how are you going to identify third-party speed axles that are "standard BSA" axles that have been professionally machined?

Ultimately, those who buy third-party parts are cheating themselves by focusing on the race, rather than on the project. That it is a concern this year indicates that next year's derby needs more emphasis on the project: Hold and publicize workshops, teach the hands-on skills, etc. It might also help to have design awards that are comparable to (and independent of) the race awards.

[RacerRusty]

In other threads, I've already commented on the issue of prohibited lubricants. The short version is that I think it's better not to restrict lubricants.

Darin, I agree with you 100% on this. From what I have read, so far, there seems to be 2 basic schools of reasoning for these restrictions. Ok 3 if you include "Thats just the way it's always been."

1. To prevent fouling the track.

It seems to be a reasonable concern. IMHO a simple WRITTEN rule would take care of this. Something along the lines of "All cars will be checked for excessive/leaking lubrication during inspection at check in. All excessive/leaking lubrication must be removed to the inspection teams satisfaction before a car will be allowed to race."

2. To level the field.

I believe the intention is very noble. I also find it to be impossible.

Re: third-party parts
You can inspect the axle tips to identify completely non-standard third-party axles, but how are you going to identify third-party speed axles that are "standard BSA" axles that have been professionally machined?

To my knowledge (What little there is) you can't. At best you can identify no points on the axels and grooves if your rules prohibit them.