What is BSA legal ???

[TAL]

IMO , A BSA legal pinecar should be stock ...

When I say stock I mean with only the running surface ,outer and inner hub edges ,hub bore ,and the inner side edge of the tire can be lightly sanded and or polished to remove slight imperfections with no other alteration of anykind to any part of the wheel ,hub or tire and all uniform factory markings shall remain fully and easily visible ,inside and out...

Axles can be polished, grooved and reshaped if so desired (So no removal of axles during inspection) , But the diameter of the axle can not be heavily modified ... In saying; a standard Bsa axle is 0.0880 diameter so give them a 0.0860 diameter minimum...

The body shall remain 1 3/4" wide where wheel axles enter the body... Body shall not exceed 7" long...
A factory wheelbase of 4 3/8", center front to center back with no more than 1 3/4" front exstention from center point of front axle...

Grooves are required for axles and bsa axles must be visable and car must clear a 1/4" center rail on the track...

Car can be no more than 5.00 ounces...

Lubes are optional but must not have excessive shedding...



This is a stock bsa race and any other modifications should be done in adult classes or open races ........

What's your opinion on this???

[Cory]

What's your opinion on this???

Your rules are WAY TOO STRICT!!!! You are STIFLING creativity!!! Why keep ENTERPRISING and ENTHUSIASTIC boys from REALIZING their POTENTIAL??? Why handicap CREATIVE THINKERS who are willing to WORK HARDER by forcing everyone to build VANILLA cars??? All of this goes against the CORE VALUES of Scouting!!!

I'm just kidding...here's what I really think:

Your rules are WAY TOO LENIENT!!! You use VAGUE PHRASES like "remove SLIGHT imperfections", "can not be HEAVILY modified", and "EXCESSIVE shedding", which will be interpreted non-uniformly. AGGRESSIVE BUILDERS with access to SUPERIOR EQUIPMENT will put this VAGUENESS to their advantage, and average boys will have NO CHANCE TO WIN!!! You have rules which are difficult if not impossible to enforce, such as measuring axle widths without removing them!!! All of this goes against the CORE VALUES of Scouting!!!

I'm kidding again.

TAL, I think it's one of many very good rule sets, and it is suitable for pretty much any Pack, District, or Council.

[TAL]

I believe these simple and uncomplicated rules would allow the creative thinker to try even harder .........

I believe these rules will limit the use of superior equipment and will force the scout to have more hands on exsperience.......

And as you say will be a good set of rules for a BSA guideline.....

The dad (or parent ) can always use his advanced creative thinking and superior tools or his money to buy high dollar wheels or prebuild car for adult classes and or open class.......

These rules will limit a lot of things that adults have bought into BSA derby racing... Tell me what percentage of scout aged kids have a cnc lath... Tell me what percentage of scout aged kids can figure out that a smaller axle and smaller wheel bore is probably faster than a standard wheel bore and axle ...Tell me what percentage of scout aged kids can figure out that a wheelbase further rear is added weight to the rear of the car and will carry more weight in the rear better for a longer run of velocity down the hill...... That is adult creative thinking !!!

[Down-N-Flames]

These rules will limit a lot of things that adults have bought into BSA derby racing... Tell me what percentage of scout aged kids have a cnc lath... Tell me what percentage of scout aged kids can figure out that a smaller axle and smaller wheel bore is probably faster than a standard wheel bore and axle ...Tell me what percentage of scout aged kids can figure out that a wheelbase further rear is added weight to the rear of the car and will carry more weight in the rear better for a longer run of velocity down the hill...... That is adult creative thinking !!!

My comment is not mean spirited, but my son knows how to read the internet, so yes he can figure out to move the wheels back. It's where I found it. As far as the lathe, if that kid is holding out on me...........

I firmly believe that the PWD is suppose to be a parent /child activity, and I explain everything we do to the cars. I also plant ideas for them to discover much like my father did and most of my teachers did in school. It is learning at it's best.

I seriously doubt you will ever get a standard set of rules.

Woody

[TAL]

Cory, you have probably covered most of the thoughts of many from both sides of the fence... And the ones in the middle ...

But to clarify the vague phrases Webster dictionary states meaning of

Slight or slightly to be; minor in degree , unimportant...

Excessive to be ; exceeding what is usual, necessary, or proper ;extreme...

Heavily has been describe with a 0.0860 minimum diameter...

That's part of the rules ...........STOCK means common and ordinary;unchanged............. No other modifications!!!

The unwritten rule , " if it does not say you can not do it then you can do it " should not be applied in stock racing........

Do you see any more loop holes ???

[Cory]

TAL, I wouldn't call them loopholes. Your rules will always be vague to some degree unless you can provide precise quantitative definitions for words like "slight", "minor", "unimportant", "excessive", "usual", "necessary", and so on.

When a precise definition introduces the need for a tool like a calipers to measure axle diameters with 1/10000" accuracy, then you may have eliminated one issue but created another. It is often a "pick your poison" situation.

Personally, I like your stock rules. They are very close to what we used to use.

But I don't subscribe to the idea of a standard set of rules. What works well for a small group might be far from optimal for a large group, and vice versa. What works well for one demographic might be far from optimal for another.

[TAL]

Very true , No one will satisfy everyone with a single list of rules...

But still a basic set of rules for BSA competition would be really nice and I believe would make the BSA arena more competetive...

PINEWOOD DERBY in general could use any rules they chose and like you say geograpical areas could use any rules they have chosen , but to compete in the BSA arena at a higher level every one would need to be on the same playing feild...

General terms will probably always be a problem in any part of life ...

But it really saddens me to see or hear of a kid/parent that worked really hard on their car to get beat out buy a car that has bought and built technology and the kid or parent that bought it does'nt even know why their car is faster...

And now for the other side ; Why not just use the general rules enclosed in the bsa kits and leave the imaganation wide open ???

[Stan Pope]

Why not just use the general rules enclosed in the bsa kits and leave the imaganation wide open ???

If I may join the fray, there are some points to consider:

1. A single set of consistently interpreted rules around the country allows and might even encourage manufacture and sale of excellent cars. That activity should not be enabled!

2. There is a vast difference around the country in the interpretation of the "rules in the box" regarding how much shaping can be done to the wheels, whether replacement of kit axles is allowed and how and where the axles may be attached to the car. They all claim to follow "the rules in the box" but the limitations on builders are vastly different. And, they each think that their own interpretation is right!

3. There is little value to the Scouting population for a third tier (e.g. state, region, area, or national) of racing.

[TAL]

I see your point stan ,and thanks for the input.......

I have always looked at the in the box rules as a general guide line and then add accordingly from that as voted on as a group....

And very much like you say, a standard set of rules across the country would probably promote mass production just as the basic 7 inch 5 ounce general guide line rule has done ...

But those stock rules could always be used by a local pack or den and even change the weights or length's as stated in the basic rules to throw the production line off...

For example ; run a 4.00 ounce 4 inch car this year and a 6.00 ounce 6 inch car next year ... Then maybe a 7 ounce 7inch car the next year ....

So in general ,when a car producer or wheel manufacturer produces wheels , or even someone reworks a wheel how can they call it BSA legal???

[Stan Pope]

So in general ,when a car producer or wheel manufacturer produces wheels , or even someone reworks a wheel how can they call it BSA legal???

The kit box insert shows the wheels being "reworked" with a drill, nail, and sandpaper block. Turning on a CNC lathe is just a matter of degree!

[TAL]

I have kit # 17006 Copy righted 1997 and nowhere do I see a drill or the wheels being reworked on the instructions or box ... Is there a newer instruction sheet ???.... Could you please be more specific.....

[Stan Pope]

Ahh! Then BSA has dropped that part of the "Instructions" in the current version of the insert. It is hard to keep all of this in my head!

[Da Graphite Kid]

Stan,

I checked all the kits I have and even some old computer files but did not find any that have the drill + sandpaper but I know that I have seen them. Does anyone have a copy of these they could send to us - purely as a 'sanity check' of course.

Da Graphite Kid

[TAL]

Only directions I've ever seen with drill and sand paper description usally comes with a wheel mandrel from pinecar , pine pro ,or maybe derby worx...

Also the Pinecar speed kit (p356) has a wheel mandrel and the description for it states use with a drill and sandpaper to remove the mold parting seam from wheels ...

Well if BSA dropped that part of the instructions it was nearly 10 years or more ago , And STAN , I don't believe you've been away that long !!!

[Stan Pope]

Hmmm... Now I'm doubting my recollection. Strange, but that memory is so vivid!

I crawled into the back of a storage cabinet and unearthed a damaged but unopened "blue box end" kit (official BSA at that time) and looked at the insert (copyright 1985) and did not see what I recall. Now I need to find an "orange box end" kit and a "black box end" kit!

It may be moot, anyway, since it was in the "how to" part rather than in the "rules" part of the document. But it would be indicative of BSA's thinking behind the kit.

Oh, well!

The PineCar mandrel shows a single wheel being turned ... which is appropriate, since the screw in the mandrel is only long enough to go through one wheel!

The interesting aspect of the "4 wheels on a nail and sandpaper on a block" approach was that it tends to produce wheels of the same size and with cylindrical tread. (But, where can you find a long nail that is straight enough and a drill chuck with such low runout as to make the process really useful?)