What is BSA legal ???

General race coordinator discussions.
TAL
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Re: What is BSA legal ???

Post by TAL »

Stan Pope wrote: But it would be indicative of BSA's thinking behind the kit.

Well I would think that all the little destinct markings on the wheel ,tire and hub (inside and out ) would also be an indicator of how the wheel should be to be BSA legal...

Such as the ridges on upper out side of the tire , spokes ,and all the lettering inside and outside of the tire and wheel (especially the words OFFICIAL BSA MADE IN U.S.A), Also the rounded edge on the inner edge of the tire and also the little ridge on the upper inner hub edge , and what about all the ridges and grooves inside the wheel... I would believe that all the destinct markings to be more important indicators of BSA's thinking behind the kit...



To me that is distinct markings and should be intact and visible to be considered BSA legal....
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2kids10horses
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Re: What is BSA legal ???

Post by 2kids10horses »

TAL,

why don't you just state that NO MODIFICATIONS can be done to the wheel? Of course, then you'd get people who just buy up hundreds of wheels looking for the ones that have the smoothest mold mark! The extreme position is no axle modification, no body shaping, no lube allowed! Heck, why not state that no additional weights can be added? Just assemble the parts in the box, and race 'em!

That way, everyone is equal. I guess. Some kits will be better than other kits in the box. Some blocks are heavier than others. Some nails are better than others. Is this fair?

I think you'd find that some kids/parents would still sand and smooth and lube, etc. Then the empahisis would be on "not getting caught". Not on applying the latest "speed tip".

I prefer to err on the side that states that whatever isn't prohibited is legal. To me, Pinewood Derby has been a learning process. For me and my son. When we started, as Tigers, we didn't have a clue. We got a little better each year. Until last year we were district champs, and 5th in council. Did we work hard on our car last year? You bet! Did we mirror polish the axles? Yup! Did we pay great attention to weight, and where we put it? Yup. Did we shave the wheels to make 'em round? Yup.

Did we work harder to get our results? No doubt.

The point is, some kids and parents will want to win more than others. That's OK. That's life. Let the rules be such that those who want to work at it more have a chance to see the results of their efforts.

By the way, we don't have a CNC lathe, we don't have a drill press, we don't have a scale, we don't have a band saw, we don't have a test track! I DO have a power drill and a dremmel. So, you CAN have great results without having to own super expensive equipment.

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Re: What is BSA legal ???

Post by Mr. Slick »

Historically, various BSA add-ons for wheels/axles have shown how to use the wheel mandrel they sell. They even showed how to cone the inside of the hub to reduce friction with the body.

If I remember, the initial white teflon stuff had the best instructions on what to do to the wheels. Too bad the stuff slows down the whole thing! :D

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Stan Pope
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Re: What is BSA legal ???

Post by Stan Pope »

TAL wrote:
Stan Pope wrote: But it would be indicative of BSA's thinking behind the kit.
Well I would think that all the little destinct markings on the wheel ,tire and hub (inside and out ) would also be an indicator of how the wheel should be to be BSA legal...

Such as the ridges on upper out side of the tire , spokes ,and all the lettering inside and outside of the tire and wheel (especially the words OFFICIAL BSA MADE IN U.S.A), Also the rounded edge on the inner edge of the tire and also the little ridge on the upper inner hub edge , and what about all the ridges and grooves inside the wheel... I would believe that all the destinct markings to be more important indicators of BSA's thinking behind the kit...

To me that is distinct markings and should be intact and visible to be considered BSA legal....
We aren't too far away from each other.

Delineation of those "distinct markings" is the basis of my district's wheel rules. They identify the wheel as "original", and they serve to limit modifications, particularly wheel diameter, by requiring that some original "tread marks" remain.

There are some "features" of an "out of the box" wheel has that I would not require, such as the tread surface. While we allow racing on totally unmodified wheels (including the slightly cupped and tapered tread), if the wheel is "worked" then it is required to pass the inspection of tread width, cylindricity, etc.

But I would not go so far as to say that every feature of an "out of the box" wheel is essential. That equates to allowing no modification at all! Some mods are understandable and accomplishable by a youngster, and can be accomplished by a youngster using tools that are reasonably available and safe to use. I think that many of those mods should be allowed. (Which tools are "safe to use" is a whole different topic!)

That said, some mods, such as tread crowning, provide such a distinct advantage that they need to be limited. (Tread crowning happens easily, and perhaps unintentionally, by turning the wheel tread against steel wool or against sandpaper backed by a flexible surface.) The idea of "distinct advantage", to me, is "any advantage that easily offsets sloppiness elsewhere in the car."
Stan
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Re: What is BSA legal ???

Post by TAL »

Stan Pope wrote: Some mods are understandable and accomplishable by a youngster, and can be accomplished by a youngster using tools that are reasonably available and safe to use. I think that many of those mods should be allowed.

Let's hear it (or see it in this case)... What mods would you allow???
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Re: What is BSA legal ???

Post by Stan Pope »

TAL wrote:
Stan Pope wrote: Some mods are understandable and accomplishable by a youngster, and can be accomplished by a youngster using tools that are reasonably available and safe to use. I think that many of those mods should be allowed.

Let's hear it (or see it in this case)... What mods would you allow???
Conceptually, I would allow working the "friction surfaces": tread, inner tread face, bore and hub faces. I would require the tread surface to be cylindrical and no narrower than the tread surface of the original wheels.

I would prohibit working to reduce angular inertia. I would require that the wheel diameter remain large enough to include the "tread nubbins at the outer edge of the tread. I would prohibit working the non-friction surfaces such as the tire wall, inside diameter of the tread and inner and outer faces of the wheel to thin the plastic and reduce the wheel's weight and angular inertia.

I am open to very small amounts of mass being added or removed to balance the wheels, statically and dynamically. This would appear as a small "blob of glue" or a "small divot", usually on the inside tread surface.

I would not prescribe method. Rather, I would define allowable result.
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TAL
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Re: What is BSA legal ???

Post by TAL »

2kids10horses wrote: Did we work hard on our car last year? You bet! Did we mirror polish the axles? Yup! Did we pay great attention to weight, and where we put it? Yup. Did we shave the wheels to make 'em round? Yup.
All of the stated above is acceptable by what I posted in my first post of the thread... Shaving ,sanding and polishing of the wheels to make them round is acceptable until you go inside removing masses of the internal wheel for the purpose of modifing and lightning the wheel ...

I agree very much with STAN on the issue of allowing a very ,very small amount to be removed and or added for balancing purposes...

And I also agree with Stan on the issue of axle size limits ....

Because when you allow undersized axles you are also opening the market for internal bore modification which would require a simular bushing or spacer of some type to make up the difference in size of the wheel bore...
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Re: What is BSA legal ???

Post by Go Bubba Go »

Stan Pope wrote:Hmmm... Now I'm doubting my recollection. Strange, but that memory is so vivid!

I crawled into the back of a storage cabinet and unearthed a damaged but unopened "blue box end" kit (official BSA at that time) and looked at the insert (copyright 1985) and did not see what I recall. Now I need to find an "orange box end" kit and a "black box end" kit!

It may be moot, anyway, since it was in the "how to" part rather than in the "rules" part of the document. But it would be indicative of BSA's thinking behind the kit.

Oh, well!

The PineCar mandrel shows a single wheel being turned ... which is appropriate, since the screw in the mandrel is only long enough to go through one wheel!

The interesting aspect of the "4 wheels on a nail and sandpaper on a block" approach was that it tends to produce wheels of the same size and with cylindrical tread. (But, where can you find a long nail that is straight enough and a drill chuck with such low runout as to make the process really useful?)
Stan: Funny thing about vivid memories, they are so often valid i.e. reflect actual happenings...

I took a look at my older kits, and the Kit No 1622 (1 car-see below) and 1623 (8 cars) have the insert you describe.

Image

On both the 1980 copyright and 1985 copyright versions (at least the ones I have), there are 6 illustrations on the back, with the 3rd being similar to what you describe.

Image

On the front side under a heading of BUILDING INSTRUCTIONS (See illustrations), point 3 reads as follows:

"3. REMOVE SEAM FROM WHEELS. Using an electric or hand drill, slide one set of four wheels over a six penny finish nail, then insert this unit into the drill chuck. Make sure the chuck is tight. With a piece of fine sandpaper glued to a flat block, lightly sand all wheels while they spin. (See Figure 3) Do not sand the wheels too thin or they may crack if car is dropped. Extra wheels available from your Scout dealer - Catalog #1623-A."

The wheels in these kits were similar to the wide tread width currently in use, but rather than a molding "pit" there was a continual seam around the circumference of the wheel, roughly in the center of the tread.

Note that there was a similar note in the even older (kind I used as a boy) kit no. 1690 (see below):

Image

Image

On the back side of the kit under a heading of BUILDING HINTS, the final sentence reads as follows:

"Remove rough edges from wheels by placing in electric or hand drill and lightly sanding tread."

The wheels in these kits were the so-called "skinny" wheels, and also had a seam running the circumference of the wheel in the middle of the (in this case very narrow) tread surface. Not sure of the copyright date of the instructions on this kit, mine is pretty worn on the back.

A couple of observations:

It is interesting that in the older kits the "rules" were referred to as Racing Specifications.

Not sure many of the parents I work with today know what a 6 penny finish nail is :shock:

I wonder if the tread sanding instructions were dropped before, or as a result of, the conversion to injection molding and replacement of the seam with the new and improved (?) molding pit.

Not to sound like an old timer (I'm not), but in a way I would rather have the seam. The molding pit sets up a very fine line with most local rules i.e. you can sand off enough tread surface to remove the pit, but if you sand too much you risk DQ (not original height, removed ribs on side, wheels too light...).

Randy L: Do I get extra "pinehead posting points" for digging into this sort of stuff, or is it merely a sign of a potential chemical (or other) imbalance on my part???
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Stan Pope
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Re: What is BSA legal ???

Post by Stan Pope »

Go Bubba Go wrote:Stan: Funny thing about vivid memories, they are so often valid i.e. reflect actual happenings...
Thank you for the research! I suddenly feel sane! Or, at least, not quite senile! :)
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Re: What is BSA legal ???

Post by sporty »

I would like to add,

Thats the rules should be the same as the district race.


I was not sure if this topic of rules was for local or for all races.


Many local packs rules differ from the regional race, that the winning cars will go to.

I think having a copy of the regional races and using for the local race is the way to go.

Even are regional rules have what I call loop holes in them.
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Re: What is BSA legal ???

Post by Go Bubba Go »

Sporty:

I heartily agree regarding consistent Pack / District / Council rules.

One key timing issue is to ensure that the District / Council rules are out early enough to be communicated at the Pack level prior to folks beginning to build their cars for the season. This is especially important if there are any changes to the rules from previous years.

I recently attended our Council Pinewood Committee meeting to ask for earlier publication of Council rules (as well as to ask for some clarification on a couple of the "finer" points). They were very receptive to my concern (and my presence - I sense I may be getting "drafted"). The Council rules are now out in time for inclusion with the kits that we hand out at our Pinewood "kickoff" at the November Pack meeting (tonight) and prior to the workshops that I will be conducting in December.
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