How to keep eBay cars out of your race

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resullivan
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Re: How to keep eBay cars out of your race

Post by resullivan » Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:32 pm

We race in a big district. I would bet money there are multiple ebay cars. They don't even come close.



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Re: How to keep eBay cars out of your race

Post by Noskills » Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:00 pm

What bothers me, and I just had another look at ebay, is the number of sellers and the diversity of builds. There are wedges, chocolate bars, fancy cuts, 1 tone paint jobs, fancy paint jobs etc. Much tougher to spot from the last time I looked at them. Any a variety of price points from $280 to $10. I am less concerned with one of them beating me with just the rampant opportunity to be unsportsman-like.
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Re: How to keep eBay cars out of your race

Post by xanthrum » Fri Feb 07, 2014 1:19 pm

I think anyone that is on this forum and forum's alike have taken car building to an advanced level. Some parents / guardians either do not have the resources, skills or interest... maybe the best they can do is taking the time (hopefully) with thier scout to pick out a car online and order it... Remember pinewood derby is just one aspect of scouting. Again why I believe that if you have very encompassing rules it allows those that want to "build" a car all the abilities to outrace any "bought" type of car... The notion of not allowing E-bay cars is at best a false hope... not to mention it goes well beyond that... just have rules that are fair - not written to favor those that are writting the rules, rules that are enforceable, rules that promote a fun event, rules that allow components that support those supporting our hobby, rules encompass the most advanced techniques in application - to help those that choose to help our young men advance thier understanding of the physics and principles involved in making a car go fast (if that is the objective) or to build something that they are proud of and years later in life glean the principles taught as part of the process.


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Re: How to keep eBay cars out of your race

Post by Speedster » Fri Feb 07, 2014 6:21 pm

I'm truly sorry to hear ebay allows these cars to be sold. I know you can buy them directly from a vendor and I'm sorry to hear about that too. So much has been said on this topic and I really don't have anything to add. I'd like to share what made me smile.
Dad buys a car from ebay. It arrives in the mail probably frozen. The scout is excited and starts rolling it across the floor. GOSH , that was FUN !!! Dad obviously doesn't care about the whole thing and doesn't do anything to tweak the car. He now is going to go to a race and whupp Noskills. I think that isn't going to happen. OH !!!! Wait a minute!!! That didn't happen. I truly can't feel what an adult can feel that buys a car for $600.00 so his scout can win a race. There's something very wrong with that relationship. I hope the scout never, ever finds out what went on in his Pinewood Derby days.



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Re: How to keep eBay cars out of your race

Post by resullivan » Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:47 am

If anyone knows of a person that buys cars for $600 please give them my contact information.



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Re: How to keep eBay cars out of your race

Post by FatSebastian » Thu Feb 13, 2014 6:55 pm

Speedster wrote:I truly can't feel what an adult can feel that buys a car for $600.00 so his scout can win a race.
resullivan wrote:If anyone knows of a person that buys cars for $600 please give them my contact information.
I suppose this dollar amount is derived from a black sliver of a car that some derby dudes offered as Item #00001? (I've purchased and driven real cars for less!)



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Re: How to keep eBay cars out of your race

Post by TXDerbyDad » Thu Feb 13, 2014 10:08 pm

resullivan wrote:If anyone knows of a person that buys cars for $600 please give them my contact information.
The family we disqualified from our 2013 derby spent $375 on three cars, not including shipping, according to the completed auctions we found of the cars.



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Re: How to keep eBay cars out of your race

Post by J.Stein » Fri Feb 14, 2014 12:15 pm

I don't "get" the anger and fear engendered by Ebay cars.

If the purchased cars conform in all other ways to your Pack's or District's rules, then any Cub with a committed parent can still win if that is his only goal.

Now let's get to the "So What?" part:
A rich/lazy/dishonest parent buys a completed car off Ebay and wins your Pack's race. So what?

Did *your* son have fun building his car?
Did he learn about tools and physics while doing it?
Did he get to spend quality time with you?
Did he exhibit good sportsmanship?
If so...he doesn't need a cheap trophy. He's already a winner and the purposes behind the derby have been fully served.

Parents who buy cars are just cheating themselves and cheating their kids. Pinewood Derby was not created to try to magically level the playing field for all kids or serve as a vehicle to embarrass kids whose parents are the ones who are jerks. Plus a cheap trophy is not worth the worry, sweat, turmoil and heartache.

I'm coming at this issue from a different perspective. Our District just published rules for 1.184" wheels one month before the District race and one week before our own Pack's race. None of the cars I've helped our Cubs build (using the thumb-lathe tool to round and true them at 1.180 per last year's rules) will now qualify. If any of those kids want to go to Districts I'm going to have to tell them their cars need to be taken apart and I've got to get them new wheels. I gauged four wheels from one kit and they all were 1.184 right out of the box. Maybe they think that folks who just know how to true a wheel are "cheaters."

It seems some folks are getting so bent out of shape about some cheaters that they are forever changing the races for *everyone* trying to get ahead of the 1% who'd cheat. Talk about sucking the fun out this...



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Re: How to keep eBay cars out of your race

Post by Darin McGrew » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:19 pm

J.Stein wrote:If the purchased cars conform in all other ways to your Pack's or District's rules,[...]
What about rules that include phrases like "you must build your car with the block, wheels, and axles from the original kit"?

As far as I can tell, we don't have parents buying eBay cars for our derbies. But our workshops have always been a bigger part of derby season than the race itself. Plus, we don't use BSA kits.

But the main problem I have with eBay cars is that they completely subvert the whole purpose of the derby. The purpose of the derby is not to see which block of wood crosses the finish line first. The purpose of the derby is to promote adult–child relationships, craftsmanship, and good sportsmanship.



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Re: How to keep eBay cars out of your race

Post by DerbyAddicted » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:22 pm

Darin McGrew wrote:
J.Stein wrote:If the purchased cars conform in all other ways to your Pack's or District's rules,[...]
What about rules that include phrases like "you must build your car with the block, wheels, and axles from the original kit"?

But the main problem I have with eBay cars is that they completely subvert the whole purpose of the derby. The purpose of the derby is not to see which block of wood crosses the finish line first. The purpose of the derby is to promote adult–child relationships, craftsmanship, and good sportsmanship.
But I think that's J.Stein's point. At the end of the day, if someone buys an eBay car, the only ones they've hurt are themselves and their son. Everyone else who followed the rules got what they were supposed to.



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Re: How to keep eBay cars out of your race

Post by xanthrum » Sat Feb 15, 2014 12:27 am

Additionally with some ridiculous rule like... parts only out of the kit... not all kits are equal. what if a parent makes a mistake like we did our first year and super glued our wheels on to the axles, is buying a new sleeve of wheels from the scout shop out of the kit? They are different wheels and axles altogether. Restrictive rules are simply not fair, and it stops the real learning of advanced engineering and application that a parent can gain together working with their scout in building a car.


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Re: How to keep eBay cars out of your race

Post by TXDerbyDad » Sat Feb 15, 2014 2:17 am

Darin McGrew wrote:
J.Stein wrote:But the main problem I have with eBay cars is that they completely subvert the whole purpose of the derby. The purpose of the derby is not to see which block of wood crosses the finish line first. The purpose of the derby is to promote adult–child relationships, craftsmanship, and good sportsmanship.
EXACTLY!!! :bigups: :bigups: :bigups:

I don't care if my boys or I win or lose in our race, though we put a lot of effort into winning. I actually look forward to the day someone beats me, as my cars are routinely the fastest in the Pack. This year our Bear leader came very close to beating me in at least one, possibly two heats if he had his rear weight a little farther forward. His car was unstable enough to lose to me by not much at all. I even told him what I would do to beat me next year.

But I feel bad for any Scout whose parent would rather buy a car than build one with their Cub Scout. And because I'm a leader and in charge of the race, I do my best to make sure that doesn't happen. It's n



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Re: How to keep eBay cars out of your race

Post by Darin McGrew » Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:44 am

DerbyAddicted wrote:At the end of the day, if someone buys an eBay car, the only ones they've hurt are themselves and their son. Everyone else who followed the rules got what they were supposed to.
And after their eBay car is disqualified this year, perhaps the team will actually build a car themselves for next year's derby. And then they'll get what they were supposed to have gotten this year too.

And next year, we won't have people skipping the derby because they don't think they stand a chance against eBay cars.



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Re: How to keep eBay cars out of your race

Post by DerbyAddicted » Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:38 am

Darin McGrew wrote:
DerbyAddicted wrote:
And next year, we won't have people skipping the derby because they don't think they stand a chance against eBay cars.
Unfortunately, especially now that there is a history of it, I think that will always be the pervasive thought. I've seen it WAY too often in gaming/sports that the minute someone loses, they automatically resort to the "they were cheating" accusations. I don't know why people do that. Not sure if it's ego, or what, but they just can't comprehend that someone is actually better than them or if there's some other reason.



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Re: How to keep eBay cars out of your race

Post by Darin McGrew » Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:02 pm

DerbyAddicted wrote:
Darin McGrew wrote:And next year, we won't have people skipping the derby because they don't think they stand a chance against eBay cars.
Unfortunately, especially now that there is a history of it, I think that will always be the pervasive thought. I've seen it WAY too often in gaming/sports that the minute someone loses, they automatically resort to the "they were cheating" accusations. I don't know why people do that. Not sure if it's ego, or what, but they just can't comprehend that someone is actually better than them or if there's some other reason.
We haven't seen much of that "they must have cheated" response. And we haven't had a problem with eBay cars, so we haven't seen people not wanting to compete against eBay cars. But these are not at all the same issue.



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