Derby Talk

One problem with stamping blocks is what do you do with the parents who wait until the last minute. What if they wreak the car the night before checkin?

No time to get a restamped block without getting an extension which will upset a lot more folks seeing someone get more time.

I use this as an example as we ended up having helped a scout build their car the night before since they didn't get it started and the scout wouldn't have raced otherwise.

I was worried about the scout making a mistake and having to start over and not having another block handy - and that was without stamping.

This type of situation would seem to promote more parental involvement and the possible pushing of the scout to the side as getting a replacement block becomes a possible pain.

psycaz wrote:One problem with stamping blocks is what do you do with the parents who wait until the last minute. What if they wreak the car the night before checkin?

Sounds like a learning opportunity to me.

But to be honest, we usually have the opposite problem. With three Saturday morning workshops, plus time to work on the cars during at least two Wednesday night meetings, our problem is what to do with the kids that have finished, without creating a distraction for the kids who are still working on their cars.

But we don't actually stamp our blocks, since we don't have a problem with eBay cars.

psycaz wrote:I use this as an example as we ended up having helped a scout build their car the night before since they didn't get it started and the scout wouldn't have raced otherwise.

I was worried about the scout making a mistake and having to start over and not having another block handy - and that was without stamping.

Actually, I have seen a couple last-minute cars, where someone brings a friend to the last meeting before registration night. The key in that situation is KISS. Techniques that work fine when you've got a month to work on the car may be impractical when you've got just an hour or two.

We did keep it simple, but I have broken enough cars by dropping them once weighted, at least one a year so far. that I was scared if he dropped his, there was no time for him to do another.

I am just trying to point another view out. My big and overriding theme is always to keep the scout first and let the politics and stuff finish last. I would hate to see a scout not race becaue of an accident and not be able to correct it due to rules trying to keep Ebay cars out, that's all.

I agree that e-bay isn't the problem it's the buyers buying their way out
of teaching. And the child loses out all the way around.
I would much reather see the joy and smile on a child's face seeing their
hard work and creativity win a race then I would to see someone
paying their child's way to the top.

However, there are several sellers on e-bay with good intentions and it's
sad that buyers are finding ways to cheat their child & other kids.

I have personally bought kits and cars off of ebay - But only as a collector.
I like to show the kids the history and evolution the cars have made
when attending their pinewood derby events.

I've also worked with a pack that held workshops so the parents & child
could build their car together in case they didn't have time or tools at home.
I've also seen alot of good ideas come from workshops as well.
No one likes a cheater but workshops and parents go hand in hand
and the rules and info could be given out at this time.
when trying to keep cheater cars out of the kids race!

But being from Oklahoma and the cowboy type of guy.
I kinda like the idea of branding the car kit's as well
just my buck 45'$ worth!

We built our car from scratch and never considered any such eBAY nonsense but I have to be honest - we broke our 1st block when I tried inserting the last axle. Luckily I was able to go out and buy a new block from the local BSA / sporting goods store and we built a completely different car and went undefeated in the pack 12-0.

The branding of the block would have been a dealbreaker for us since there would have been no way that we could have gotten another block from the pack in time......

just my 2 cents on the branding thing......

If it is so competitive where packs have a problem with parents or scouts purchasing body kits or bodies to win, then this is just sad and disappointing.

1) Drill-in from day one honesty and integrity. Winning by cheating is not really winning, but an empty accomplishment that gains nothing and steals integrity.
2) Have a leader take a picture of the bottom side of each block to show the grain of the block as a finger print. Have the rules state that the bottom of the car can not be painted over covering up the grain and at race day the grain pattern should match the picture. That will scare away any potential cheaters, even if you really don't have to do it. Just the thought alone will deter people. This is an almost un-enforceable way unless you use a computer to aid matching up patterns as most block grain patterns look the same to me.
3) Get a simple set of fine numbered wood stamps. Have each scout request where to place stamp punch into the wood as their official race day number. This will allow scouts to design and precut their cars as they choose. This also acts a build report. Scouts that break their car between the last met and race day would be subjected to more rigorous inspection without a stamp.

I'm very fortunate as my pack is very small, all the parents know each other, and I run the most polite, courteous, well behave young scouts in the world. They make the older Boy Scouts at meetings look like savages. So we don't have to deal with issues like this.

Two of our rules help keep out e-bay cars. We also schedule PLENTY of workshop time with experienced builders. Only three kids from our Pack did NOT stop by my garage for use of something or other during their builds.

1. You must use official BSA Pinewood Derby bodies, wheels and axles. Use of pre-cut bodies is prohibited. BSA Grand Prix Pinewood Derby wheels and axles that have been altered and re-sold by third parties are prohibited.

10. The winning racer, not the parent, in each category must give a short speech on their best speed secrets upon presentation of their award. The committee decides the number of winners who must talk. Be prepared.

rpcarpe wrote:Use of pre-cut bodies is prohibited. BSA Grand Prix Pinewood Derby wheels and axles that have been altered and re-sold by third parties are prohibited.

How do you deal with the new Revell per cut bodies, the kits are BSA approved?

The old standards of "out of the box or out of the race" really has reached the limits of what is reasonable as well ad enforcable.... How do you know its out of the box? Do you make them show you the box? Any rule which has zero reliability for enforcement does little or nothing to promote the root reason for the rule, which is to provide parity, as best as possible, in racing...

Problem is, current block manufacturing doesnt even bother to fulfill its own standard spec .... Take out 10 official kits and line up the blocks..... how many do not conform ... Ill bet at least 3. If the objective is faurness and unifirmity, requiring out if the box blocks gaurantees this will never be the case.

Moving to precut bodies has the same enforcability issues... Given that many parents have no access to tools, buying a precut rough body is no knock on parity... Because a poorly built precut car could not out perform a raw block, properly weightd and setup....

Much opinions, but bottom line is an unenforceable rule is meaningless
Just my opinion

Nicholas

ah8tk wrote:

rpcarpe wrote:Use of pre-cut bodies is prohibited. BSA Grand Prix Pinewood Derby wheels and axles that have been altered and re-sold by third parties are prohibited.

How do you deal with the new Revell per cut bodies, the kits are BSA approved?

Now that's a good question?
Do you let the kids race with these types of kits.
or do you keep them out of your race like the ebay cars.
What about the pre-made kits or complete cars sold by some venders on web sites as well.
Or are the good ol days of building out of the box. gone?

rpcarpe wrote:Only three kids from our Pack did NOT stop by my garage for use of something or other during their builds.

While off-topic, I am curious to know if these 3 placed either very well or very poorly. If poorly, it suggests that they didn't want help. If well, it suggests that they didn't need help.

ah8tk wrote:

rpcarpe wrote:Use of pre-cut bodies is prohibited.

How do you deal with the new Revell per cut bodies, the kits are BSA approved?

I would presume that BSA-approved pre-cut bodies are disallowed under such a rule, as they are still "pre-cut bodies".

FS - two kids, of the 3 that didn't stop by the workshop, did terribly. Their Dad knew about the availability but didn't make the time. One kid and Dad are VERY knowledgeable and didn't need my help. One car from my shop beat that car on the last heat. Barely.

Pre-cuts - These TWO out of ten rules help the most:
"1. You must use official BSA Pinewood Derby bodies, wheels and axles. Use of pre-cut bodies is prohibited. BSA Grand Prix Pinewood Derby wheels and axles that have been altered and re-sold by third parties are prohibited.

10. The winning racer, not the parent, in each category must give a short speech on their best speed secrets upon presentation of their award. The committee decides the number of winners who must talk. Be prepared."

Now I just found out that the local Scout Shop will get in the BSA Wedge car kits. I'd guess that the local Pack Master will allow the wedges or other kits that are BSA approved. We just don't want people BUYING their pre-made cars in an attempt to win.

Also we push the workshops and child/parent involvement big time. The 10th rule, give away your speed secrets, ensures the kids know how their car got that fast.

TAL wrote:Why not throw a twist in your rules every year...

Darin McGrew wrote:I like the idea of mixing things up a bit from year to year, and varying the limits from the "standard" ones.

One option is to provide an inexpensive item that must be visibly integrated into the car. The advantage of this approach is that it does not require any changes to the conventional race parameters.

The last time we required the integration of a small glass marble of a particular color (of which we could get in quantity from the $1 store). Some kids tried to design around the marble; others turned it into a feature (using two marbles to make "eyes" on a creature car, for example). Our races are presented as engineering challenges, and how to affix a round piece of glass to a squarish piece of wood was part of that challenge.

rpcarpe wrote:
Pre-cuts - These TWO out of ten rules help the most:
"1. You must use official BSA Pinewood Derby bodies, wheels and axles. Use of pre-cut bodies is prohibited. BSA Grand Prix Pinewood Derby wheels and axles that have been altered and re-sold by third parties are prohibited.

10. The winning racer, not the parent, in each category must give a short speech on their best speed secrets upon presentation of their award. The committee decides the number of winners who must talk. Be prepared."

Now I just found out that the local Scout Shop will get in the BSA Wedge car kits. I'd guess that the local Pack Master will allow the wedges or other kits that are BSA approved. We just don't want people BUYING their pre-made cars in an attempt to win.

Here is my question: as stuped as this may sound!
Most pack rules read something like whats quoted above and
what is seen below.

Car's must be built in that year useing an offical kit.
Or it reads something like this:
All car's must be built for the current pinewood racing season.
No Repeats or repaints...
But no ware in these pack rules do I see a rule or a note:
that states what year of offical kit is to be used.
one could build a car in that year using an older offical kit
thinking it would be ok because it's not specifically stated in the rules.

When in doudt, I'd ask the race manager to state: or make a note:
in the Pack rules.
Of the kit catolog number # 17006 for that year of offical kit to be used.
Or any other offical BSA type of kit's & Wheels that could be used as well.

It's a tip that will save you alot of greef later.

FatSebastian wrote: Our races are presented as engineering challenges, and how to affix a round piece of glass to a squarish piece of wood was part of that challenge.

That's a good challenge!

Let me ? DUCK TAPE!
just thought i'd make you laugh FS.

You diden't say how one had to affix it!

whodathunkit wrote:

rpcarpe wrote:
Pre-cuts - These TWO out of ten rules help the most:
"1. You must use official BSA Pinewood Derby bodies, wheels and axles. Use of pre-cut bodies is prohibited. BSA Grand Prix Pinewood Derby wheels and axles that have been altered and re-sold by third parties are prohibited.

10. The winning racer, not the parent, in each category must give a short speech on their best speed secrets upon presentation of their award. The committee decides the number of winners who must talk. Be prepared."

Now I just found out that the local Scout Shop will get in the BSA Wedge car kits. I'd guess that the local Pack Master will allow the wedges or other kits that are BSA approved. We just don't want people BUYING their pre-made cars in an attempt to win.

Here is my question: as stuped as this may sound!
Most pack rules read something like whats quoted above and
what is seen below.

Car's must be built in that year useing an offical kit.
Or it reads something like this:
All car's must be built for the current pinewood racing season.
No Repeats or repaints...
But no ware in these pack rules do I see a rule or a note:
that states what year of offical kit is to be used.
one could build a car in that year using an older offical kit
thinking it would be ok because it's not specifically stated in the rules.

When in doudt, I'd ask the race manager to state: or make a note:
in the Pack rules.
Of the kit catolog number # 17006 for that year of offical kit to be used.
Or any other offical BSA type of kit's & Wheels that could be used as well.

It's a tip that will save you alot of greef later.

FatSebastian wrote: Our races are presented as engineering challenges, and how to affix a round piece of glass to a squarish piece of wood was part of that challenge.

That's a good challenge!

Let me ? DUCK TAPE!
just thought i'd make you laugh FS.

You diden't say how one had to affix it!

My opinion on this matter is to remember that an unenforcable rule is ultimately just words on paper.

Here is how I address this topic... Precut raw bodies are a fact of life, bsa approved and sold, and can no longer be prohibited if we are to be consistent and honest about where the "state of the sport" is today. And where we are is you cannot say "no precuts" and " must use official bsa kit " because bsa sells precuts! So thats not very consistent. I recommend you embrace precut raw bodies from any source, because we all know that thr success is in the setup.
Secondly, when the block is boiught should not hamper a scouts ability to qualify for a race, simply because left ovdr kits exist all of the time. The key is to simply add this sentence.. "construction of the entry must have begun after the first day of the current school year"
Finally... Rely on teaching the honor system and keep the event fun, and not oppressive