How Much Time Needed for District Races?

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How Much Time Needed for District Races?

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I accepted the District Derby chairmanship recently and need to set up a schedule for the races.

We plan to invite the winners of each rank (Tiger through Webelos 2) from each Pack in our District. There are 22 packs in our District--I'm sure not all of them will show up. That means that up to 110 boys can race. How long will we need for inspection?

We have an 8 lane Challenger track with GPRM, starting lights, electronic timing and starting gate actuation, etc. How long should I expect for each rank's set of races to take?

I expect the Grand Finals to be made up of the Top Three from each rank, which means 15 cars. Or, should we choose the 12 or 15 fastest overall to go into the Grand Finals?

What should my schedule for the day look like?
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Re: How Much Time Needed for District Races?

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Is your intention to race by grade? (This can be beneficial to your schedule.)

What are details of planned race? Timed? How many rounds? How many lanes used?

I'd recommend racing by grade, starting with oldest group. Use a common inspection line and set aside at least 45 minutes per group, so that there is time for parents and drivers to act on problems. Each period of inspection should give preference to the group for which it is intended, but allow others to be inspected on a time available basis. This means that the inspection line has two queues.

The inspection cycle kinda dictates the minimum racing cycle! If 45 minute periods are set aside for each age group, then the age group racing can not start more frequently than every 45 minutes!

I think that you should be able to complete each age group racing 2 rounds on an 8 lane track in 45 to 60 minutes even if all of 'em show up! If drivers stage and retrieve their own cars, then you will be on the high end of that estimate, and may need to make do with one round.

If racing by grade, then certainly take the three fastest of each grade for finals. Otherwise, they don't know who / how many need to return for finals!
Stan
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Re: How Much Time Needed for District Races?

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Our District consists of 5 towns & 33 Packs. The races are run in 4 groups. 2 smallest towns are run together as a group. 1 hour for check in. 2 hours allotted for racing each group (and award trophies). 1st check in at 9am, run at 10am, 2nd check in at 11am, run at 12pm, etc. District finals at 3pm.
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Re: How Much Time Needed for District Races?

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Pinewood Daddy wrote:Our District consists of 5 towns & 33 Packs. The races are run in 4 groups. 2 smallest towns are run together as a group. 1 hour for check in. 2 hours allotted for racing each group (and award trophies). 1st check in at 9am, run at 10am, 2nd check in at 11am, run at 12pm, etc. District finals at 3pm.
Something doesn't compute here ... is there a second track involved in order to get 8 hours of racing done in 6 hours?
Stan
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Re: How Much Time Needed for District Races?

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Stan Pope wrote:
Pinewood Daddy wrote:Our District consists of 5 towns & 33 Packs. The races are run in 4 groups. 2 smallest towns are run together as a group. 1 hour for check in. 2 hours allotted for racing each group (and award trophies). 1st check in at 9am, run at 10am, 2nd check in at 11am, run at 12pm, etc. District finals at 3pm.
Something doesn't compute here ... is there a second track involved in order to get 8 hours of racing done in 6 hours?
Sorry!! I just checked the schedule again. (It's hard to think & type while you're supposed to be working!!) 3 GROUPS. Raced 10am, 12pm & 2pm, finals at 3pm. Only (1) 4 lane track.

Your math is impeccable again Stan!
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Re: How Much Time Needed for District Races?

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Stan Pope wrote: Is your intention to race by grade? (This can be beneficial to your schedule.)

What are details of planned race? Timed? How many rounds? How many lanes used?
Yes, plan to race by grades (I called them ranks). Timed races, I figured each car in each lane (8 lanes). Winner determined by average time with slowest time dropped.
Stan Pope wrote:I'd recommend racing by grade, starting with oldest group. Use a common inspection line and set aside at least 45 minutes per group, so that there is time for parents and drivers to act on problems. Each period of inspection should give preference to the group for which it is intended, but allow others to be inspected on a time available basis. This means that the inspection line has two queues.

The inspection cycle kinda dictates the minimum racing cycle! If 45 minute periods are set aside for each age group, then the age group racing can not start more frequently than every 45 minutes!

I think that you should be able to complete each age group racing 2 rounds on an 8 lane track in 45 to 60 minutes even if all of 'em show up! If drivers stage and retrieve their own cars, then you will be on the high end of that estimate, and may need to make do with one round.
What do you mean by 2 rounds? Each car in each lane twice? With 22 cars, that'd be 44 races per grade.
Stan Pope wrote:If racing by grade, then certainly take the three fastest of each grade for finals. Otherwise, they don't know who / how many need to return for finals!
Excellent point!!!

So, it'd be something like this:
9:00-9:50 Webelos 2 check-in
10:00-10:50 Webelos 2 race and Webelos 1 check-in
11:00-11:50 Webelos 1 race and Bears check-in
12:00-12:50 Bear race and Wolf check-in
1:00-1:50 Wolf race and Tiger check-in
2:00-2:50 Tiger race
3:00 Grand Finals.
etc. etc. etc

So, there would be one group racing while the other is being inspected? Did I get that right?
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Re: How Much Time Needed for District Races?

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PWD_addict wrote:What do you mean by 2 rounds? Each car in each lane twice? With 22 cars, that'd be 44 races per grade.
Yes, that is the "PPN usage" of the term "round." It would be tough to do if the boys stage their own cars, but doable if your track staff runs the whole show. If boys stage, I'd limit it to one round. And eight heats per car should really be sufficient.
PWD_addict wrote:So, it'd be something like this:
9:00-9:50 Webelos 2 check-in
10:00-10:50 Webelos 2 race and Webelos 1 check-in
11:00-11:50 Webelos 1 race and Bears check-in
12:00-12:50 Bear race and Wolf check-in
1:00-1:50 Wolf race and Tiger check-in
2:00-2:50 Tiger race
3:00 Grand Finals.
etc. etc. etc

So, there would be one group racing while the other is being inspected? Did I get that right?
Yes! Excellent perception! :)

If there were gaps in the inspection workload during 9-9:50 you could allow check-in / inspection of Web 1 or Bear cars, etc. But Web 2 cars must take precedence during that time. You would also need a safe "pit" to impound the inspected Web 1 cars, separate from the Web2 cars, until their racing time arrived.
Stan
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Re: How Much Time Needed for District Races?

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Stan--
I am so glad I asked for advice here. I wasn't sure it could all be completed if we had registration in the morning and races in the afternoon. Given the above schedule, I am definitely going to push that the Bridged Webe 2s get invited.

The only sad thing will be that those folks doing inspection won't get to see all of the races. Since I plan to be the final inspector (looking for lightened wheels), I will likely miss a bit of the racing.

However, it will make the day much more smooth doing it that way.

I brief District Committee on my plans tonight. I'll let you all know how it turned out.

edit-- Here's an update. At our District Committee meeting, no one had any problems with inviting the Webelos 2s that had bridged. I'm so glad there wasn't opposition. Thanks again for the suggestions.

--Dave
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Re: How Much Time Needed for District Races?

Post by Stan Pope »

Good work!

Now, how can you "hedge your bets?" Very likely, racing will not take exactly the time guestimated. Would it be better if racing for each group finished early or late? Yes, you guessed it! Better to finish early! So, I'd go with one round (8 heats per racer) rather than two rounds.

You should not try to fill any job in inspection or racing. Find people of good judgement whom you trust to do those jobs. You should be wandering around watching and managing.

For instance, watch the first half dozen races of the first group of racers. Note the racing start time and the cycle times. Project the finish time for all the heats. If they appear to end late, then look at the operation to see where they are losing time and get it fixed early!
Stan
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Re: How Much Time Needed for District Races?

Post by PWD_addict »

Stan Pope wrote:Good work!

Now, how can you "hedge your bets?" Very likely, racing will not take exactly the time guestimated. Would it be better if racing for each group finished early or late? Yes, you guessed it! Better to finish early! So, I'd go with one round (8 heats per racer) rather than two rounds.

You should not try to fill any job in inspection or racing. Find people of good judgement whom you trust to do those jobs. You should be wandering around watching and managing.

For instance, watch the first half dozen races of the first group of racers. Note the racing start time and the cycle times. Project the finish time for all the heats. If they appear to end late, then look at the operation to see where they are losing time and get it fixed early!
Good advice Stan! I was thinking of allowing basic inspection to be done by almost any adult--checking if it fits in the box, weighing it. I then expect to have two or three of us who can do final check like looking for illegal wheels and checking for presence of graphite and magnets/front stickiness.

I saw someone mentioned Stan's "inspection procedures" and did a search but I wasn't able to find them. Can someone point me in the right direction?

Now, I need to figure out what we need GPRM to be able to do and post some questions on the software forum.

Thanks!
Dave
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Re: How Much Time Needed for District Races?

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PWD_addict wrote:I saw someone mentioned Stan's "inspection procedures" and did a search but I wasn't able to find them. Can someone point me in the right direction?
They are on his district's website at http://www.wotamalo.org/pwderby.htm
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Re: How Much Time Needed for District Races?

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gpraceman wrote:
PWD_addict wrote:I saw someone mentioned Stan's "inspection procedures" and did a search but I wasn't able to find them. Can someone point me in the right direction?
They are on his district's website at http://www.wotamalo.org/pwderby.htm
Holy plagiarism, Batman!!! Everything I need is on that page.
Thanks Randy (and Stan)!!!
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Re: How Much Time Needed for District Races?

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PWD_addict wrote:Holy plagiarism, Batman!!! Everything I need is on that page.
Thanks Randy (and Stan)!!!
Including Stan's phone number if you have any questions.
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Re: How Much Time Needed for District Races?

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Pinewood Daddy wrote:
PWD_addict wrote:Holy plagiarism, Batman!!! Everything I need is on that page.
Thanks Randy (and Stan)!!!
Including Stan's phone number if you have any questions.
FWIW, my area code is 309! But, for the next few days (weeks?), email is the surest way!

BTW, I was thinking about the front-end stickiness test last night. I think that a simple rig with a vertical board about 12" high at the end of a simulated track segment. From the top end, drop a string centered over the track. Tie a steel paper clip to the string at car nose level. Push the car gently up to the paper clip, then draw it away slowly. The paper clip should not follow the car back. A simple test for vertical is to lift the end of the rig. This should cause the paper clip to move away from the board as soon as lifting starts. One of our engineers can calculate the force that is needed to pull the paper clip away from vertical, but my "gut feel" is that it is small enough as to be inconsequential on the track.
Stan
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Re: How Much Time Needed for District Races?

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Stan Pope wrote:BTW, I was thinking about the front-end stickiness test last night. I think that a simple rig with a vertical board about 12" high at the end of a simulated track segment. From the top end, drop a string centered over the track. Tie a steel paper clip to the string at car nose level. Push the car gently up to the paper clip, then draw it away slowly. The paper clip should not follow the car back. A simple test for vertical is to lift the end of the rig. This should cause the paper clip to move away from the board as soon as lifting starts. One of our engineers can calculate the force that is needed to pull the paper clip away from vertical, but my "gut feel" is that it is small enough as to be inconsequential on the track.
In terms of racers using magnets in their cars, it would seem the simple solution would be to replace the steel start pins with some stainless steel ones. The magnets should be far less attracted to the stainless steel pins. This would render the magnet check obsolete.

As for sticky substances, I would think that a simple touch test on the front end would suffice. It is more subjective, but to be any help to the car, I would think that the front end would need to be very tacky. If your finger sticks to it, then it is too sticky.
Randy Lisano
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