New Pack, new format of Derby

[chad9229]

I wanted to get the "experts" opinion on my idea of our format for our Pinewood derby next year. We are starting a new Pack, it will begin in the Fall.
I am one of "those" parents, I love the Pinewood derby, I get into it, and so does my son.
But what if we decided to have 3 separate days where the boys can come build their cars and leave it there that day. They never get to take it home and the sons and dads work on it at the workshop.
The Pack will hang onto the cars until racing day. I think this will make everything fair. Every boy gets the same opportunities with the tools and all are on a level playing ground. The only cars that can race are the ones that were built at the workshops. If they want to build one at home it can be considered for the open class.
We will have everything for them, from Sand Paper, Paint, decals...

I wanted to see what you guys think of this idea. Thanks!

[PWD_addict]

Is your intention to try to make it a completely level playing field? Personally, I prefer to do that by making the rules such that more advanced techniques and tooling are not allowed and providing optional workshops for those boys that don't have access to standard power tools.

[Stan Pope]

I'd pass this one by ... too many problems. Instead of making a "PWD Workshop Session" into a help, you would be making it into a hindrance!

Here are some issues:

1. Schedule compatibility: The plan "force fits" every parent's schedule into a limited timeframe. A parent with a conflict for only one of the three times puts his/her son at a distinct disadvantage.

2. Tool availability: If you have more than a couple of boys, you won't have enough tools to provide timely tool access. Or, the choice of tools will be too limited to provide a valuable experience.

3. Car security: Each car must be secured in an "immobile locker" to which only the owner has the key. The lockers must be secured in a room to which only a disinterested organizer has the key. Otherwise, you are defenseless.

4. Liability: By assuming control, your organization probably takes on liability for any accidents that may occur. The organization's choice of tools overrides the parent's judgement regarding appropriate tool selection for his child's developmental stage.

[chad9229]

I am just tired on racing day having to tell people they can't use these wheels, or the axels are illegal, or parents using kits. I think to not have to question the integrity of the parent on race day is one of the reasons. There will be No questions whether it is illegal or not on race day. That takes the aspects of questioning every car out of the equation. It makes for less confrontations and questions.

[Stan Pope]

Keep working at it ... there must be a better solution than proposed. Better training for the parents with clear, concise written rules accompanying the kits is a good place to start.

[Darin McGrew]

I am just tired on racing day having to tell people they can't use these wheels, or the axels are illegal, or parents using kits. I think to not have to question the integrity of the parent on race day is one of the reasons. There will be No questions whether it is illegal or not on race day. That takes the aspects of questioning every car out of the equation. It makes for less confrontations and questions.

Impounding the kits/cars except during approved workshops won't solve the problem. It will still be possible to build a car that violates your derby's rules, even if work can be done only at your approved workshops.

[Bulldog]

Yeah, I wouldn't recommend what you are suggesting- In addition to Stan's comments, I can forsee many other issues:

1. Some boys work faster than others; rightfully so, as a webelo with better skills and experience would naturally work more quickly than a tiger who has never handled a coping saw before. Limiting the amount of time one is able to spend on their project can put some kids at a severe disadvantage.

2. Pinewood derby is fun. Many boys like to spend loads of time getting their sanding or paint job 'just right'. Why would we want to limit their creativity and craftsmanship?

3. Many boys like to be secretive about their designs, and surprise everyone on race day. Springing the hot dog car to his peers on race day has a far better effect than if everyone is watching him build it from day one.

4. This is a competition, and boys are competitive. Some folks may feel that their design, alignment technique, materials, etc, give them some sort of advantage over the competition. Some do not want to let go of their 'secrets'. Building the cars with everyone else does not allow for one to be discreet with their 'top secret aerodynamic varnish'.

I think that if you write your rules clearly and specifically, you should be able to avoid issues of 'illegal' wheels, axles, etc. Have all boys and parents sign a rules acknowledgement form if you feel it's necessary.

Have workshops to help the boys who need it or want it, but don't require them.

[PWD_addict]

I am just tired on racing day having to tell people they can't use these wheels, or the axels are illegal, or parents using kits. I think to not have to question the integrity of the parent on race day is one of the reasons. There will be No questions whether it is illegal or not on race day. That takes the aspects of questioning every car out of the equation. It makes for less confrontations and questions.

I totally understand the reasoning. I don't know how competitive your Pack is, but we didn't really have any major issues at inspection. Weight and length and clearance issues but those were to be expected. We had one boy that had used his own nails because the kit nails were so crooked! But that wasn't an attempt to circumvent the rules. Of course, I don't think many in our pack understand the value of lightened wheels. Fortunately, our inspector does so no one has tried it but couldn't get away with it if they tried.

I would suggest to spend time making sure your rules are pretty clear. Present them to the Pack when you give them the kits and explain what you want to avoid so that there are no excuses.

[SlartyBartFast]

I am just tired on racing day having to tell people they can't use these wheels, or the axels are illegal, or parents using kits.

Well, how about having a progress check at regular meetings? Then you might catch developing problems (even help a kid or two that don't start soon enough).

Then, have check-in and inspection of the cars in advance of race day. At least then you can send the cars home with the kids with a list of the rule offenses and a chance to fix the car. Similarly, have the second inspection before race day. Do away with all the inspection related headaches for the chief organiser on race day.

Need a way to store, secure, and transport all the cars though.

[Darin McGrew]

1. Some boys work faster than others

Related to this, some boys have longer attention spans than others. Those with shorter attention spans do better working on their cars for a few minutes at a time, but working on them frequently over the course of 2-3 weeks. This approach is incompatible with requiring all work to be done only at the official workshops.

[Go Bubba Go]

I am just tired on racing day having to tell people they can't use these wheels, or the axles are illegal, or parents using kits. I think to not have to question the integrity of the parent on race day is one of the reasons. There will be No questions whether it is illegal or not on race day. That takes the aspects of questioning every car out of the equation. It makes for less confrontations and questions.

I understand your issue, but IMO the proposed solution is worse.

For the most part, the concerns I have about your proposed solution (Schedule Compatability, Tool Availability, "Surprise" designs given away early, etc.), have already been voiced by others above, so I will not repeat them here. I will add that as a Dad of more than one boy (we have several ), I know we enjoy the freedom to "Pine On" and "Pine Off" with each boy individually (and sometimes together) as we see fit. Personally, I would feel both cramped and restricted by your proposal.

However, providing the voluntary opportunity for boys to come to workshops over several days would be a very good way for you to serve the other boys (and Dads) in your Pack, and in that way you could help to eliminate some of the concerns that you have with regard to those that did attend the workshops.

For those that did not attend the voluntary workshops (as well as those that do), I would focus on early communication of rules (i.e. what is allowed and what is not) in writing, and consider offering an advance "pre-check" to catch most of the issues you are concerned about before the day of the races. You might look into having a Friday Night Test and Tune as was discussed in this post.

But to "force fit" all the boys (and Parents) into the 3 day plan with cars impounded in between would be, IMO, not good. Not exactly like curing a headache by decapitation, but not good.

[SuperDave]

Start with a fundamental question and proceed from there.

"What's the purpose of the Pinewood Derby?"

Once you get that settled, the rest is easy. Take every decision and weigh it against the purpose. If you don't have an agreed upon purpose then all the decisions are based on the individual's unstated and often unrealized priorities.

[speedbump]

Have you tried a pre-race inspection day? We try to have a night-before race
test/tune/inspection. That way anyone having tech problems will have ample time to get things fixed or corrected before race day the following morning.
This might work for you and your situation. We still have regular inspections and weigh- ins the day of race for those that cannot make it on Fri night or don't want to. But, those that want to come the night before (posted hours) are more than welcome to test their car and get an inspection sticker slapped on it (impounded of course). Just offers more options to busy parents. Just a thought
Plus, it helps alleviate the mass hords on Sat morning sending all the cars thru inspection at once or we get backlogged getting the cars thru. Makes race day less hectic and takes some of the stress of the chairperson and helpers

[Darin McGrew]

Have you tried a pre-race inspection day?

We used to have the registration and inspection just before the race. I am now a big fan of having the registration and inspection well before the race. (We have the registration and inspection at our Wednesday night meeting before the derby, which is on Saturday evening.)

It makes race night so much easier, it makes registration so much easier (including any last-minute repairs/corrections), and it makes it so much easier to schedule impartial design judges for the design awards.

[BigDozer66]

I'd pass this one by ... too many problems. Instead of making a "PWD Workshop Session" into a help, you would be making it into a hindrance!

Here are some issues:

1. Schedule compatibility: The plan "force fits" every parent's schedule into a limited timeframe. A parent with a conflict for only one of the three times puts his/her son at a distinct disadvantage.

2. Tool availability: If you have more than a couple of boys, you won't have enough tools to provide timely tool access. Or, the choice of tools will be too limited to provide a valuable experience.

3. Car security: Each car must be secured in an "immobile locker" to which only the owner has the key. The lockers must be secured in a room to which only a disinterested organizer has the key. Otherwise, you are defenseless.

4. Liability: By assuming control, your organization probably takes on liability for any accidents that may occur. The organization's choice of tools overrides the parent's judgement regarding appropriate tool selection for his child's developmental stage.

Stan's post has much wisdom in it.

If those were the guidelines that our Pack used I would foresee it being the end of PWD's.

BigDozer66