Situation - Rule violation - What to do...

General race coordinator discussions.

What would you do? (NOTE: Pack DQ 'unwritten' rule is always to allow cars to race. It will not, however, be elegible for 'speed' awards.)

Poll ended at Sat Feb 07, 2004 12:07 am

Stick to rules - Requires wheels to be replaced prior to race or be DQ'ed.
10
100%
Ignore - Let other 'officials' address the issue if detected.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 10

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Derby Wizard
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Situation - Rule violation - What to do...

Post by Derby Wizard »

Situation: A cub scout racer who will be absent the day of race gave car to a representive for upcoming event. The wheels were obviously sanded. It was mentioned this would be questionable for the upcoming event. This news was not well received(basically ignored).

Stick to the rules on derby day? (both parties - ie the representative and absentee parents have significant rank in the pack)

Temptation is to ignore the situation...however if the car places well and 'medals' this won't be fair to the other scouts following the rules.

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Re: Situation - Rule violation - What to do...

Post by Derby Wizard »

PS- The fact the wheels were questionable was mentioned to the parent.
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Stan Pope
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Re: Situation - Rule violation - What to do...

Post by Stan Pope »

Derby Wizard wrote:The wheels were obviously sanded. It was mentioned this would be questionable for the upcoming event.
<snip>
The fact the wheels were questionable was mentioned to the parent.
Short term, follow past pack practice.

Long term, why were the wheels reported as "questionable"? They should be either "legal" or "not legal". It helps if the rules clearly differentiate legal from not legal. So, start getting next year's rules set with less ambiguity. A reasonably literate parent should be able to read the rules and determine with confidence that the car is in compliance.
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Re: Situation - Rule violation - What to do...

Post by TurtlePowered »

Stan Pope wrote:
Derby Wizard wrote:The wheels were obviously sanded. It was mentioned this would be questionable for the upcoming event.
<snip>
The fact the wheels were questionable was mentioned to the parent.
Short term, follow past pack practice.

Long term, why were the wheels reported as "questionable"? They should be either "legal" or "not legal". It helps if the rules clearly differentiate legal from not legal. So, start getting next year's rules set with less ambiguity. A reasonably literate parent should be able to read the rules and determine with confidence that the car is in compliance.
Wish I had more pull with our district firm up the language so you could tell exactly what is legal and what is not because our pack follows district rules.
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Re: Situation - Rule violation - What to do...

Post by terryep »

Many rules are more specific. Often they say you must have a flat tread profile and still be able to see the tread marks on the edge. See row of bumps around the edge. Stan's web site has a great set of rules.

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Re: Situation - Rule violation - What to do...

Post by Stan Pope »

TurtlePowered wrote:Wish I had more pull with our district firm up the language so you could tell exactly what is legal and what is not because our pack follows district rules.
"Lack of pull" is a challenge, but do take the concerns to the district activities chairman (that is where district PWD responsibility is usually located) and ask for help (and offer to help!)

If they think that they are "doing fine," they have little motivation to change. So, let 'em know where the problems and opportunities are.

It will probably require patience. Traditions change slowly. But they can change in a way that preserves the essence of the event. We changed a very successful (from a participation perspective) double elimination event to a quintuple elimination event. We did it without significant changes to the event duration. Similarly, we rewrote the rules to preserve the (traditional) intent of the old rules but to remove a lot of vague and ambiguous language. We aren't done yet. There are still some "soft spots" that irritate me greatly!

Latitude in the rules is good! Leave latitude to encourage exploration. Ttry to define boundaries that respect the abilities and resources of most participants. On the other hand, don't try to keep it so simple that the only necessary tool is a kitchen knife! Finding resources is part of the challenge. Terry's bushing is an example of a very inexpensive solution to a problem.

</pinebox_mode>Oops! Sorry about that!
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Re: Situation - Rule violation - What to do...

Post by Da Graphite Kid »

Derby Wizard,
First off, I don’t think a pwd car should be raced without the owner of the car present. I know that things can happen that can prevent a boy from attending but I also would not want our derby turn into an unattended activity. It’s hard enough to get parents to come to meetings as it is… Our District rules state that "the Scout must register" and upon questioning I have found out that he has to be there at least at the start of the race - to register his car.

I say stick to the rules as the car belongs to just another Cub Scout. If the parents have significant rank in the pack as you state, than they should understand that all Cub Scout competitions are to be run in a fair manner. They are 'Trained' leaders aren't they?

I also agree that the rules should be clear and precise on any matter that could give a performance edge. As Stan stated: “It helps if the rules clearly differentiate legal from not legal.”

We also write our Pack rules (which I have to finish today…) based on our District rules as we don’t want to have a Cub Scout face the possibility getting his pwd car DQ’d if he didn’t rebuild it between races.

I also feel your pain with the rules as we are racing under the following District rule this year: “Wheels may not be altered in any way. Mold projection defects on wheel treads may be removed by sanding lightly. The decorative dots on the wheel treads may not be removed.” I asked the following question: “Can the wheel tread be removed so that the outer diameter of the wheel is concentric (round) with the wheel bore (as long as the simulated tread – “decorative dots” are still visible)?”. The answer I got was “NO”. So now we face the decision of either hand sanding the molding gate off our wheels (flat spot time!) or taking the chance that we are allowed to chuck the wheels up in a drill and "sanding lightly" until the molding gate is gone. I’m afraid that the later will get us DQ’d. Although I had e-mailed this and other questions to the District Chairman a week ago, it took a phone call, as Stan directed someone else to do, to get an answer sent back to me.

We are also racing under a rule that states that "All four wheels must contact the track at the same time". I can just see one of the officials pushing down on some poor Cub Scouts pwd car until the axles bend and all four wheels touch at the same time. :sick: :sick: :sick: Makes me sick to think about it...

I am also taking the initiative and have already volunteered to the District Executive to run next years District race. I also made the offer of equipment use (Track, Timer, Software, Scales,…) for this year’s District race but have yet to receive an answer. Again, this has been more than a week ago.

By the way Terryep, nice picture but I’m thinking that they would DQ the car that wheel was on at our District race. Personally if a Scout showed up at our Pack race I would tell him what a great job he did. :mrgreen:

Da Graphite Kid
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Re: Situation - Rule violation - What to do...

Post by Stan Pope »

Da Graphite Kid wrote:Personally if a Scout showed up at our Pack race I would tell him what a great job he did. :mrgreen:
Right on!

I think that every car going through inspection needs a few compliments! That should be part of the inspection team's job dexcription!
Stan
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Re: Situation - Rule violation - What to do...

Post by Darin McGrew »

Da Graphite Kid wrote:I also feel your pain with the rules as we are racing under the following District rule this year: ?Wheels may not be altered in any way. Mold projection defects on wheel treads may be removed by sanding lightly. The decorative dots on the wheel treads may not be removed.? I asked the following question: ?Can the wheel tread be removed so that the outer diameter of the wheel is concentric (round) with the wheel bore (as long as the simulated tread ? ?decorative dots? are still visible)??. The answer I got was ?NO?.
Our rules allow the removal of "manufacturing irregularities", but prohibit "reshaping" the wheel. The idea is that you can make the stock wheel better, but you can't use it as raw material to manufacture a wheel of your own design. But then it's a judgement call as to when the line is crossed and a wheel has been "reshaped". But I thought that was the point of rules that require that certain details (e.g., the "decorative dots on the wheel treads") not be removed.

I suppose you could argue that your wheels had "mold projection defects" all over them: everywhere that the wheel tread was out of round. And that by sanding the tread, you were merely removing the "mold projection defects" that were keeping your wheel from being round. It would be easier to argue this if there were still a few "low spots" that clearly remained unsanded. ["Pay no attention to the rules lawyer behind the curtain!"]
Da Graphite Kid wrote:We are also racing under a rule that states that "All four wheels must contact the track at the same time".
I just don't understand rules like this. It's easy to get three wheels on the plane of the track surface, but hard to get all four on the plane of the track surface. A "tricycle car" isn't an unfair advantage; anyone can build one. Argh...
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Re: Situation - Rule violation - What to do...

Post by Derby Wizard »

The rules state:

"The wheels may not be sanded, shaped, ground, machined or tooled. Rounding the tread area to minimize wheel to surface contact is not allowed......."

I think this is pretty straight forward.

I tried to be subtle in addressing the subject, which is why I choose the word 'questionable'. As I mentioned, this is a very political situation and a defensive stance was taken by the parent. When other officials are present on race day I hope this can be handled fairly...but due to the political issues and lack of cohesiveness among the leadership in the pack this could develop into a real mess. I believe I'll ask one of the other officials to inspect wheels/axels. :?

The lack of understanding, accusations, comments, and poor reasoning I've encountered or heard is amazing. Anyone else suffer from these situations? I can't imagine this is something completely unique to our pack.
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Re: Situation - Rule violation - What to do...

Post by Darin McGrew »

Derby Wizard wrote:The rules state:

"The wheels may not be sanded, shaped, ground, machined or tooled. Rounding the tread area to minimize wheel to surface contact is not allowed......."

I think this is pretty straight forward.
Ditto. I don't like rules that are this restrictive, but given that set of rules, the car cannot run as is.
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Re: Situation - Rule violation - What to do...

Post by Da Graphite Kid »

Derby Wizard,
I'll ditto Darin's "ditto". I've seen this sort of behavior at levels higher than our Pack. It's a real shame when the boys are the well behaved ones! :shock:

All you can try and do is show everyone a better, more reasonable way to act and run things. People can change and act better when they really want to - I'm proof of that. :oops:

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Re: Situation - Rule violation - What to do...

Post by glaforge »

One other way to take the "heat" off you might be to have officals that are outside the pack. They should know the rules and have enough backbone to enforce them. It is very hard to tell a kid on race day that he needs to change his car to be "legal", but it must be done to be fair.
If you have these same officials at a "test run" before the actual derby, that might give the kid (parent) more time to change and further defuse the problem.


I heard a story a few years ago where at our district PWD a kid was allowed to race with grooved axels (clearly a no no according to our rules), but the official caved because of the parents arguing. Guess what, that car won and now the offical had a whole bunch more complaining.

I feel for you, you are certainly between a rock and hard spot. Good luck.
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Re: Situation - Rule violation - What to do...

Post by RacerRusty »

terryep wrote:Many rules are more specific. Often they say you must have a flat tread profile and still be able to see the tread marks on the edge. See row of bumps around the edge. Stan's web site has a great set of rules.

Image
Terry,

I realize this is and old thread but I just have to ask. What is that on the wheel? A coxial connector?

Just currious.

Thanks
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Re: Situation - Rule violation - What to do...

Post by Stan Pope »

RacerRusty wrote:Terry,

I realize this is and old thread but I just have to ask. What is that on the wheel? A coxial connector?

Just currious.

Thanks
Terry is in and out, but "in" only infrequently. Just in case he isn't "in" right away, I'll tell you what he told me.

The brass thing is a bushing from some electical part. It is a snug fit to the hub OD to hold the wheel while smoothing the tread.

There is a risk that the hub OD and bore are not coaxial, but the risk must be very low, since the Terry team's racing results were great.
Stan
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