Branded Blocks

[sprntrcr]

Some of you may remember our pack had issues with an eBay purchased car that we didn't find out about until 2 weeks after the derby.
viewtopic.php?t=2515

So we decided to brand the blocks before we handed them out this year.

After experimenting on some scraps of wood, I came up with the following. I vise gripped some cheap Harbor Freight punches to an old wore out spade bit and chucked it in my drill press. Heated it with a propane torch and stamped the blocks.



It actually went a lot smoother and quicker than I thought it would. I could brand 3 blocks before reheating, which only took about 30 seconds once I got going.



I used a knife to pry open the end of the boxes as gingerly as possible and removed the blocks. Onces they were all branded I dumped the boxes one at a time, counted the axles and wheels, put everything back in the box and hot glued it closed. Out of 30 kits, I had one that was short an axle.

We handed them out at our pack meeting on Monday where I explained that at least one of the branding marks must remain untouched (no paint, no sanding, no nothing). I also offered to re-brand any car design that would require removing the branded area. But they would have to contact me and get it branded when the car was roughed out. There would be no branding of finished cars.

I explained it as a method to better insure that the cars are built this year and not purchased off the internet. I think it went over very well and it seemed that everyone agreed.

I've kept the letters clamped together just in case there is any issues with forgery. If you look closely you can see the letters are not aligned, by coincidence, which would make it harder to duplicate. Having the original handy would hopefully show the discrepancy. I don't expect any issues. Although we had a few pinecar cut-outs last year, I don't think the parents really thought about it as cheating. In fact most of them did poorly anyway since they didn't do any wheel/axle prep.

[Stan Pope]

Nice solution!

[sporty]

It is a nice solution.


I do have some questions.

Do you allow them to purchase more than one kit ?

What about the fact that you can also purchase the kit from scoutingstuff also ?

Were the rules changed, that they could only use the kits your pack hand out ? did your district council also aprove this ? Or are awhare of your new method ?


I ask as, even our district rules, only state a official kit must be used.


So, I wonder about other parents who buy more kits or start earlier than when the kits are handed out ?

by getting a kit right from scoutstuff ??


Also, many do not use the stock axle base, most are crooked or much harder to align than what is needed.

How do you work around people who use the other side of the block ? or is this not allowed for local and district in your area ?

Do you have a link to your disctrict PWD rules ? I would like to read them.


You have taken a good approach, I am wanting to know where I think areas of problems come have been thought of and worked out.


Sporty

[sprntrcr]

Do you allow them to purchase more than one kit ?

Our pack provides one kit to each scout. If they bugger up a wheel or something, we usually replace the damaged part if we have extras.

What about the fact that you can also purchase the kit from scoutingstuff also ?

Since they get a free one, 99% just use that. They can buy extra kits from our local scouting store for the sibling/open competition races, but they don't need to be branded.

Were the rules changed, that they could only use the kits your pack hand out ?

If they use a block other than the one provided, they need to get branded when the car is roughed out. No branding will be done on cars with wheels installed or painted.

did your district council also aprove this ? Or are awhare of your new method ?

They are clueless. I tried to get a copy of their rules last year and no one knew nothing. Last year was my first year and it turns out they didn't hold a district race. It is my understanding from talking to older scout's parents that in previous years there was a pack that bought their track to the scouting show and the only thing they did was weigh the cars.

So, I wonder about other parents who buy more kits or start earlier than when the kits are handed out ?

I guess this doesn't prevent someone from starting early. Though in our pack I don't think it is an issue. I think I'm the only pinehead, and although we have been talking about this years design for months, we won't start until Christmas week when I'm on vacation and school is out.

Also, many do not use the stock axle base, most are crooked or much harder to align than what is needed.
How do you work around people who use the other side of the block ? or is this not allowed for local and district in your area ?

Our pack rules state that the standard wheelbase must be used. I believe we were the only ones who did not use the grooves last year. With this in mind, I branded the back side of the front groove, so if one does move the wheels all the way to the back, with the standard wheel base, the front axles should be right under the band. If they decide to use the other side, then it will need to be re-branded once it is roughed out.

Do you have a link to your disctrict PWD rules ? I would like to read them.

I wish there were district rules, I would like to read them myself. We didn't even have pack rules until I took over coordinating last year. We learned a lot last year and have many new improvements this year like a new Best Track, Turbo Timer and GPRM. Once we get all the kinks worked out of our pack derbies, I might pursue trying to take on the district coordination.

You have taken a good approach, I am wanting to know where I think areas of problems come have been thought of and worked out.

I think it will work well for us, perhaps just make it more obvious that the scouting block must be used. We had a few Pinecar cut-outs that people had bought from Michaels last year. Not because they wanted to cheat, but because they probably felt they couldn't cut out a car as nice, and most likely didn't realize it was breaking the rules. I didn't get too hung up on these as they still had to install the wheels and axles and most didn't do any prep work so the cars were slow anyways.

Since 99.9% just slap the thing together, the rule doesn't impose that much of an inconvenience. In fact I don't anticipate any requests for branding, but will gladly do it if needed.

You do raise very good questions, and this might not work well for a pack or districts that have very competitive scouts/parents.

[sporty]

sprntrcr,


Thank you so much for explaining and answering all my questions.


It gives me a much more clear idea on how they work for you.


But I think I was hoping to see how it worked for district and so forth.


Wow, no district race in your area. WOW !

Our local area must be lucky, we are allowed to use the block upside down, where their our no grooves.

I really think you have hit upon something here. More than you realize.

This is something that could help solve the e-bay, pre-built ready to run racers !!!


What I am tossing around in my head though is state by state id numbers for the kits ! like you have done.

But again that may create more issues than really solve.


I do not have a issue with kit cars, unfinished or not built yet.

Alot of parents and kids, do not have the ability to do shape they like. So I just do not aprove of the ready to run, already built cars !


I have also seen this back fire, I have been to local races, where someone had a e-bay car or a car that was claimed to be super fast.


It lost, it was well known right after wards, the unhappy grouchy parent. Upset feeling of being ripped off when the car lost !!

I have even e-mailed some sellers, claiming super fast cars, I wasasking for track times. Alot of them are not faster than some of our own cars we have built over the years !

Seems the super fast cars are way illegal, 1 gram wheels and grooved axles.


BTW, Ya can groove the inside of the wheel that makes contact with the axle !! Wonder why they do not sell them !!

It would still be illegal, but alot hard to see than a grooved axle.


Food for thought.


Sporty

[Stan Pope]

BTW, Ya can groove the inside of the wheel that makes contact with the axle !! Wonder why they do not sell them !!

It would still be illegal, but alot hard to see than a grooved axle.

Not worth the effort!

Still, if they were advertised as "worth the cost" or "worth the effort," many folks would pay a premium for 'em ... at least once!

Keep in mind that grooving the bore so that there is a ridge of equal diameter near each end of the bore requires that the outer end of the bore be enlarged... and every 0.001" increase to the bore diameter increases the bore-axle friction loss by about 1%. Not a good plan!

Edit:
My comments are disputed based on some tests. I have insufficient detail to comment on the validity of the tests. When actual tests disagree with accepted theory, then both need to be reevaluated. Was theory applied correctly? Did tests sufficiently exclude uncontrolled variables? Sounds like an opportunity for someone's Science Fair and/or discussion in a new thread!

[chesspupil]

They are clueless. I tried to get a copy of their rules last year and no one knew nothing. Last year was my first year and it turns out they didn't hold a district race. It is my understanding from talking to older scout's parents that in previous years there was a pack that bought their track to the scouting show and the only thing they did was weigh the cars.

My main concern here for children is that your stamp would need to be maybe on 6 sides, and that 4 would be eliminated in a WING design. Also, if your pack does not have regional rules, who, and under what authority, would write them, and take responsibility to ensure other packs have them... and would they use your stamps or make up their own....

How would you fairly compete against a pack that does not recognize the requirement?


Would they willingly comply? Does BSA have a strong council strength on the administrative side if two packs all of the sudden claim regional authority?




I'm surprised someone has not head stamped the axles in a similar manner or the same purpose...

[sprntrcr]

My main concern here for children is that your stamp would need to be maybe on 6 sides, and that 4 would be eliminated in a WING design.

Our rules state that stock wheel base must be used, and by placing the brand mark behind the axle grooves it lined up perfect for those that moved their axles back as well as those that used the grooves. I also offered to rebrand any car whose design would remove both brands when it was in the roughed out shape. No one took me up on that.

You could brand it as many places as needed if you have the time. The ultimate solution would be to completely CNC router all faces of the block with the packs name.

Also, if your pack does not have regional rules, who, and under what authority, would write them, and take responsibility to ensure other packs have them...

As stated previously, we don't have council races.

I also stated earlier that this is not the ultimate solution for all packs. All I can say is that it worked well for us. We had 26 cars and no issues. Everyone actually seemed to like the rule and the fair competition it provided.

[BlackLotus]

I think this is an interesting solutiion. Our pack has a rule that says you "... must use the block of wood issued by the pack..."

I've already asked how we would know if the block was not the one issued. I suggested we eliminate the rule unless someone can come up with a way to enforce it fairly. I think you may have done that. Mind if I take your idea to our pack?

[sprntrcr]

Mind if I take your idea to our pack?

Feel free to, I can't take credit for the original idea anyway, it came up here on the board in discussion long before I did it.

Overall, I was quite pleased on how well it worked. Being the first year, I expected issues with people not understanding, but I kept reiterating the rule every time we talked about anything related to the PWD. Everyone seemed actually happy with the rule once I explained why we where doing it. I am pleased to say we had absolutely no issues this year. We had 26 scouts and each kept at least one brand mark. There where a couple that had paint over spray on the brand, but it was clear it was an oversight and not intentional.

Our derby went off with out a hitch and everyone had a good time.

Good Luck...

[CuriousGeorge]

To make the brand even harder to duplicate you could possibly throw in a design. There are a lot of leather tooling designs available which could work in conjunction with your numbers and letters. Pick an obscure one and throw it in the mix... Like "P 6 3" then a star or half moon or flower.... any kind of design. Someone would have to go to a whole lot of trouble to find that exact shape and size to duplicate. With just numbers and letters, someone could just line them up by placing them into the brand and then clamping them together. That would give them and almost exact duplicate of the original brand. I know I have the harbor freight ones myself, both sizes.

[dstory]

Great ideas, but it is sad that this kind of thing even has to be discussed.

Don