What Should be Sold on E-Bay

[MathGuy]

I see allot of great E-Bay cars, and I am not excited about it.

I know that there are people that just don't have it in them. I think the race rules need to address this. Most rules state that the cars need to be built by the parent/ boy in the prior year.

Clear enough, but what if someone doesn't have the tools, time, or passion for such a product, and they hear that you can buy the cars on ebay. Seeing cars that promise to be the fastest, and being your pack and district champion might be too tempting for a "buy-it-for-the-kid" parent or grand parent, and is something that defeats the purpose of the project and will destroy the nature of PWD.

We can't stop cars from being sold on E-bay, but in looking at the listings, there is clearly a line to be drawn between right and wrong. Since God or the courts isn't going to give an opinion on this, I will. Here is the spectrum of what a kid/parent could be started with.

1. Block of Wood, Standard Wheel and Axles.
2. Cut Block of Wood, Unsanded, no weight compartments. Standard W/A
3. Cut Block of Wood, Sanded / with a single coat of base paint, no weights, stan. w/a.
4. Cut, Single coat of base Paint, Weights included but not attached, Standard W/A.
5. Cut, Base Paint, unattached weights, decals, glue, graphite, w/ standard wheel/axle. I/E any child/parent could finish.
6. Cut Block of Wood, multi color painted and details, weighted, need to attach wheels.
7. Fully assembled car, ready to race, with standard w/a.
8. DERBY CHAMPION, non standard wheels, a car that will beat 90-99% of the boy/parernt teams.

I believe that #5 is as far as one should go. If the parent and child can't do anything on the car, then they should simply choose not to particpate in PWD. (People do chose this all the time.)

The 6, 7, 8, defeat the purpose of PWD. There is no element of the childs and parents work in the project. I would wish those e-bay sellers would focus on 2,3,4,5 on there projects.

If anyone here actually agrees with this spectrum, I would encourage you making and selling kits on e-bay next year that goes to the spectrum that you feel comfortble with. The only way to put the derby champs out of business is to put many many cars kits out there as alternatives. And the first line of the description should be: "NO DERBY RULES THAT WE KNOW OF, WOULD ALLOW YOU TO RACE A FULLY PREMADE CAR THAT YOU AND YOUR CHILD DID NOT MAKE, DON'T CHEAT YOUR CHILD".

Again, the problem is for every car district champion car that is sold, you know that 50 boys are getting cheated. And the child of the parent who bought the car is being cheated even more, and they probably won't even know it. I now surrender the soapbox.

[Stan Pope]

Flood the market! Sounds like a plan to me!

[MathGuy]

We might just want MaxV get involved in being a Ebay seller. His Kits that he sells are fairly close to number 5. Max V I think has it right.

[Derby Wizard]

Math Guy-

I'm glad to see some brave person posted their thoughts on this subject. I'll share some of mine...

I haven't recognized an E-bay car in any of the races I've been to and I feel there is a good chance I'd spot it if one appeared. In some respects I'd actually like to see one to verify if in fact it can win against some of the homebuilt cars as one might say.

(Some people would buy a uncut block of wood if you stacked enough trophies in the picture and claimed it was based on a council winner.)

Many of the 'high performance' cars I've seen advertised would be disqualified based on our council rules because of extended wheelbases or slot requirements. I also know that there are enough other parents checking out E-bay that if a car showed up in a race looking too much like one appearing on E-bay the kids and parents would probably be shunned for eternity simply based on suspicion it was purchased from E-bay.

I will even admit I've seen a couple of PWD cars for sale that are simply COOL that I'd like to have for display and bid on one or two for that reason. In both cases someone else thought it was much cooler. They sold for much more than I would be willing to pay. I could build my own for less money but it require a considerable amount of time...maybe why some sell for the prices they do.

Personally, I don't expect that most of these cars are being purchased for kids but if that is the case then I would agree it is sad. The question I would ask is who is the one suffering the most? The parent/purchaser, the kid, parent & kid, or ? I don't think the sellers should be "put out of business"...as you say. I do agree it would be nice for them to encourage parents/kids to build their own cars for PWDs.

If one goes to the extreme I think your list could be expanded from 8 to about 1000...I'm somewhat surprised you are open to allow purchase of a pre-cut car. This is part of the design fun.

Decals- BSA decals? Purchased decals? hand made decals?...parent spending $$$

Weights- Hardware store washers, old fishing weights, BSA weights, or a number of other products available for sale?...parent spending $$$

Paint- Spray paint, brush on, or $500 airbrush kit and spray booth...parent spending $$$

Tools- hand tools, dremel, drill press, specialty alignment tools etc...parent spending $$$

Graphite- hardware store standard or specialty mix...parent spending $$$

Where doesn't one draw the line or formulate a rule?

I know some in our pack think many of the above are unfair as it costs additional money...and some aren't willing or can't afford these type of add-ons or equipment. On the reverse, there are some kids in our pack with dads who work in auto body shops or have access to the paint and equipment at one. They have turned out some really cool cars. I don't think it's fair to disqualify them and I think I should be allowed to go purchase an airbrush kit and spray booth for my son to try or any other item if I was so inclined. As long as the kid is doing the vast majority of the work and the parent is sharing in the experience with them...I'm pretty open to what should be allowed. In our council I believe we have enough rules and would like to see some removed or changed to allow more freedom. Many things people view as inequalities might be eliminated with some PWD workshops...and probably inspire kids to do more themselves. My son wouldn't be happy if he didn't get to build it...you should see the reaction if I even try to help beyound a demonstration. "I can do it Daaaad."

In case you are wondering, I would never purchase an E-bay car for my son to race.

[MathGuy]

Thanks for giving me the business. I knew I was going to get some with a post like that.

I think cutting the wood is the biggest problem for parents who don't have an ounce of woodworking ability, or the right tools. Sanding, Painting, detailing a car, and tapping in the wheels are something that a child/parent can do and have a high enough degree of ownership, and accomplishment, that they will be proud of race day, (win or lose we hope).

[MathGuy]

Speaking of Ebay,

This is a car I was watching all week, THIS CAR IS AWESOME.

I was willing to spend $30 on it out of respect and amazement, and it was over that mid week. I went was a spectator for the last minute of the auction, it was $75 going into the last hour, and then the last minuteminute it rolled all the way up to $201. WOW, there probably was at least 3 guys sniping at, but it looks like a treasure.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEBWA:IT

[gpraceman]

Speaking of Ebay,

This is a car I was watching all week, THIS CAR IS AWESOME.

I was willing to spend $30 on it out of respect and amazement, and it was over that mid week. I went was a spectator for the last minute of the auction, it was $75 going into the last hour, and then the last minuteminute it rolled all the way up to $201. WOW, there probably was at least 3 guys sniping at, but it looks like a treasure.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... K:MEBWA:IT

Nice looking car, I'll grant that, but how much of it was from a model kit and how much from the original block of wood? From the description it sounds like a lot is from wood, but to me it looks like a lot is not.

[Whistler]

I've been scanning the e-bay board for Pinewood derby for the last year or so and am constantly surprised at what sells there. Like others I can understand the fact that some builders feel the competition from the aerospace engineers and toolmakers in the pack merits purchase of specialty tools for manufacture, or even prepolished axles, but never a completed car. Certainly our time is worth money, and the savings in buying a car outright might make some sense from a purely financial standpoint. However we need to realize that what we are giving up by doing that is the time spent with our children teaching, and learning from them. I think anyone who feels the need to buy a "derby champion" on e-bay deserves just what they get: missing out on the whole purpose for the PWD, an empty win, and a 16" plastic trophy to gather dust (if they even do, in our pack the most unlikely cars tend to win).

A very competitive car can be built with a coping saw, power drill, set of needle files, few pieces of sandpaper, and a Pro Body Tool. I think its a shame that some parents don't want to take the time to work with their children on such a fun memorable project.

While I'm on a rant a few other things that bug me about the e-bay PWD sales:
1. People selling cars that are listed as ensuring "derby winners"
2. People selling mass produced versions of Stan's rail car without giving him design credit.
3. The whole concept that one should be able to buy one's way into the winners circle (though that opens up a whole can of worms from professional sports to politics )

It's nice to see all the designs out there though (the main reason I keep an eye on the site). There are more new images of different styles of car posted on e-bay at any one time than anywhere else. I also have to admit that while some cars do reach outrageous prices many others sell for far less than minimum wage for the builders.

[TDean]

Hey, this sounds like a subject for me to jump in on!

First, while I have built a rediculous number of non-Cub involved PWD cars, each is one-of-a-kind -- not mass-produced -- and the only thing I have ever sold -- on eBay or anywhere else -- are templates, so folks can build their own. I have never sold one of my actual cars, though I've had offers from collectors. This is mostly because I'm too attached to them -- but also, as Whistler noted, I could sell some of them for $200 and still not make minimum wage based on the number of hours spent creating them...

Second -- what really amazes me, is not the fact that some folks are trying to make a buck mass-producing District Sure-things (that is bad enough) -- but that there are builders who are selling cars that are shaped, painted and decorated and finished -- but you have to add your own wheels and axles! This is no less unethical a purchase, than buying a "winning" car -- but these cars are not likely to win a "Show" prize or any speed trophy -- so what DO you get? No trophy. No self-esteem for your son (or you). No special memories created. Just a mediocre car, a red face and a lighter wallet. I don't get it....

Now, I know these cars are supposed to be intended for "less fortunate" Scouts that don't have access to a shop or woodworking tools -- but if you aren't expecting to get a speed trophy anyway, there are an infinite number of fun and creative things you can do with a simple block of wood with some paint, decals, model kit pieces -- heck, even feathers and pipe-cleaners if you feel like it -- and you'd have a much greater sense of pride, ownership and accomplishment (and maybe get that "Most Unusual" trophy after all!). No tools or woodworking skills necessary....

thanks for the rant vent.....

[Derby Wizard]

Thanks for giving me the business. I knew I was going to get some with a post like that.

Oh fudge, I wasn't trying to give you the business. I didn't want the post to come off that way. I really credit you for opening up the subject. I've wanted to rant a bit on that subject for awhile...just chicken to be the original poster...but it's a good one to discuss.

This board is just great. I like hearing opinions on all these topics.

I love being a pinehead. It's a been a great activity for my son and I.

[SPEEDBUGGY]

MAN THAT CAR ON E-BAY IS MORE DETAILED THEN I USUALY GO. IT IS TOO COOL TO RACE. I WOULD BE AFRADE TO RACE IT. ONE GOOD BUMP AND FORD SHRAPNEL EVERY WHERE.AS FOR THE WHOLE E-BAY QUESTION I AM ON THE FENCE.SOME PEOPLE DON'T HAVE SKILL OR PAISHINCE OR TIME TO MAKE A CAR.PRE CUT IS AS FAR AS THE SELLERS SHOUD GO .BUT I DO LIKE TO LOOK.I LIKE THE OLD 50'S CARS AND I TRYED TO BID ON SOME BUT WAS OUT BID. BUT I FOUND ANON BUILT KIT AND MADE MY OWNE.I ALSO GOT A TWO LANE TRACK FROM THERE SO E-BAY IS GOOD FOR ME.I COULD NEVER SELL ANY OF MY CARS THERE BUT I WAS THINKING ABOUT IT. I HAVE MADE CARS FOR SOME OF MY CO WORKERS BUT THEY WERE NOT FOR ANY RACE.THEY WERE MOSTLY OF THERE FIRST CARS THAT THEY OWNED. I REALY LIKE TO MAKE CARS THAT THERE IS NO TOY OF.MOST PEOPLE ASK ME TO MAKE THEM A CAR AND ALL I ASK IS A LITTLE DOWN PAYMENT($5) AND A PICTURE OF THE CAR FOR REFERENCE.I TELL THEM IT WILL BE $30 MINUS THE DOWNPAMENT AND I NEVER HEAR FROM THEM AGAIN. I THINK IT IS A FAIR PRICE WITH ALL THE TIME INVOLVED.WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK?

[Whistler]

Speedbuggy:

Having seen the quality of the work you do in the pix section I would say that $30 is extraordinarily cheap for any of your replica cars. Of course this assumes that you do all the wheel and axle prep that takes so long (or I suppose you could buy a speed wheel/axle set from e-bay for $12) and have the same level of detail as on your own cars. If you do that $30 wold be slave wages.

[Da Graphite Kid]

Whistler,
I think that everyone who has seen Speedbuggy's work will agree with you there! The detail, the doors and all that open... WOW!

- Okay for some reason I can't get the emoticons to work... -

insert Clapping emoticon here


Da Graphite Kid (or tonight just: Daaaaaa)

[SPEEDBUGGY]

AS FOR WHEEL TREATMENT I DO NOT PUT ON ANY ACCEPT A LITTLE GRAPHITE.THE PINECAR AXELS ARE VERY SMOOTH AND DO NOT NEED ALOT OF POLISH. LIKE I SAID I DONT MAKE THEM TO RACE. THOW THEY COULD BE USED FOR EVIL. AS FOR OPENING DOORS I MAY CHARGE A LITTLE MORE.IT DEPENDS ON THE CAR AND THE PERSON. NOW THAT I HAVE MY NEW TRACK I WILL BE DOING MORE WITH THE WHEELS. SPEAKING OF TRACK. I WAS PLAYING WITH THE START SECTION JUST TO SEE HOW SOME OF THE CARS WOULD RACE AND THE FASTEST ONE IS THE OLD BSA 50'S RACER.THE KICKER IS IT WEIGHS 3OZ. AND IT BEAT A 7 OZ. CAR. BUT IT WAS ONLY A 3 FOOT SECTION SO MIGHT NOT WIN IN THE LONG RUN. BUT YOU NEVER KNOW. HOPFULY I WILL GET THE TRACK FINIHED IN A FEW WEEKS. I DID NOT LIKE THAT IT DID NOT HAVE A CURVED SPOT FOR THE BOTTOM SO I MADE ONE. NOW I HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO MAKE SOME TIMERS OR SOME THING.ONE STEP AT A TIME.I ALSO STARTED TO MAKE A POWERED PINE WOOD CAR TO DAY. I MAY HAVE TO RETHINK MY POWER SORCE TO SOMETHING LIGHTER THAN A NINE VOLT. RIGHT NOW IT IS A PLANK WITH A MOTOR , BATTERY ,WHEELS , AND GEARS. THATS 4 OZ. RIGHT THERE AND YOU ALL KNOW I CAN'T BUILD A BORING OLD WEDGE.

[PWTom]

Math Guy, I agree with your system and think that #5 is about right if you include the paint, but not apply it (i.e., car in a box, everything you need) Any cub can paint a car, let alone with "parental help." You may not get the "Best Paint Job" award, but the cub can say "I did that."

My son heard that one of his friends was using a pre-cut car and his comment was "Gee, he won't get to spend time with his dad working on the car." 'Nuff said.

However, in #3, you appear willing to give them Stan Now that's a real advantage!!

3. Cut Block of Wood, Sanded / with a single coat of base paint, no weights, stan. w/a.