Question for fellow District PWD Chairs

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jbofkc
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Question for fellow District PWD Chairs

Post by jbofkc »

I volunteered to be the District PWD Chair and took over for a volunteer that held the post for five years.

After visiting with the District Activity Chair and the Professional Scouter - District Executive - and hearing negative comments form those having attended the district race the year prior. A number of changes were implemented from a better track, better timing system, posting of the district rules in a timely fashion, having a better venue, etc.

I realize there will be some conflict and ruffled feathers as the district rules are enforced to provide a fair & balanced race for all entrants. I want to know from folks that have held this post and conducted district races --- how much tension/finger pointing should I expect on race day from irate parents?

I encountered my first real taste of it today on a phone conversation. Our rules for the past few years have stated that the axle slots must be used and in their current position. No extended wheelbases. Just run the slots stock from the kit. Simply square to the edge of the block as needed.

This volunteer leader in the area/pack leader said that the winners of his pack have extended wheelbases and expect to race in the district event with their current configuration. He indicated that their pack follows the rules supplied in the official BSA Kit. I politely stated that they are welcome to race cars that follow the posted district rules. Extended wheelbases will not be permitted to run. They have six weeks to modify the cars or build new ones that fit these rules.

I must add, the current rules were approved and posted on the district website and sent to those on the district roundtable e-mail distribution before Christmas. Historically, district rules are released in late January or the first week of February. Districts is the end of March. Last year, as with this year, extended wheelbases were not permitted. This is not new in 2008.

So, "how much of this should I expect leading upto the race and on race day?" I am not nervous or shying away from this potential confrontation. I dealt with a whopper within my pack during inspections. I only imagine it being more intense at the district level. Just wanting to prepare myself.

Thank you for your input.
Last edited by jbofkc on Tue Feb 19, 2008 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Question for fellow District PWD Chairs

Post by Stan Pope »

There are always some! Usually, if you have put out the info ahead as you have done and the rules don't change drastically from year to year, there will not be too many.

Your caller only read part of the kit insert! Just above the section that tells "Car Specifications" there is an important warning that he should be aware of. It says, "IMPORTANT: The Race Committee should decide on rules and race procedures, then have them printed and distributed to all participants at least two weeks before the race." Sounds like your caller neglected part of his responsibility, and decided that his rules should take precedence over the district rules. He can do that ... for the pack races. But that shows little respect for his scouts who hope to race at district. He should have finished his conversation angry, of course, but at himself, not at you!

But you know that already. Fortunately, few are so blind. And, it doesn't matter how well you do, you will have complaints. And, they will probably include both that "The cars didn't race enough times!" and "The races took too long!" So, gather the complaints. Don't use them as direction regarding what to change. Rather, use them as subjects for analysis and, maybe, survey. You may find that, as usual, the folks who like it as it is make a lot less noise than the ones who don't.
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Re: Question for fellow District PWD Chairs

Post by jbofkc »

After our conversation, I noted the "IMPORTANT' notice on the kit to the district activities chair. I recounted my conversation and this portion of the kit rules.

Good news is that several good comments have been made from folks attending last years race and they like the steps put forward to make the event a sought after function. More than a few comments were from folks hoping their Scout failed to qualify for districts based on past experiences.

Do you foresee tempers during inspections on similar rules interpretations or pack vs district rules? I do and was told this by last years chair. He said I should have about four good ones. I am 6'8" and still physically active folks might come at me a little less extreme.

I want to hold a preliminary weigh-in 48 hours before the event to address any issues like this and give folks that do not review the rules thoroughly some time to fix things before raceday. This idea was shot down. Too bad, parents that try to sneak things past the "going to be trained inspection team" are only cheating their Scouts. Any value to this pre-inspection at the district level?
Last edited by jbofkc on Tue Feb 19, 2008 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Question for fellow District PWD Chairs

Post by 3 Cub Dad »

JB,

I'm in much the same situation, only our district hasn't had a race in many many years. We've been lucky at the pack level and haven't had to deal with any run-ins, but I expect district to be a little different. We are having an "open" class for leaders an all comers. If any cars show up outside the rules and can't be repaired to meet rules before the start, I'll offer them the chance to run in the open, but they're not going to compete against scouts who have followed the rules.

I don't think pre-check in is feasable for districts, (we do this at the pack level for exactly this reason, plus it alleviates the chaos from the day of the race) In our case, the district covers three different counties. Unless your prepared to take the inspection crew on the road, I don't think you can require people to make two trips for the derby.
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Re: Question for fellow District PWD Chairs

Post by CuriousGeorge »

I plan on having a suggestions box this year with plenty of blank pieces of paper and pens. Maybe this will give me some insight as to the parents point of view on the Derby. I'm sure there will be more complaints than anything else. That's why at my previous job we called it a 'complaints' box (unofficially of course), because few people offer praise, but many are quick to complain. I know what ya'll are thinking..... I'm a glutton for punishment.
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Re: Question for fellow District PWD Chairs

Post by joe »

jb, let me share some similar frustration. I don't know that you are hosting the Northern Tier district derby this year, but if not, you are right next door! For as long as I know, our Pack and many others have allowed 3-wheel cars. Our check in has always been the night before the district race. Last year, for some reason, in violation of all decorum and common sense, the derby chair and others took it upon themselves with the knowledge of NONE of the participants, to bend the axles down on 3-wheel cars so they would have 4 wheels touching. How do we know this? The chair told the crowd on race day, essentially accusing us of cheating, but bending the axles with no one's knowledge, no, that's not cheating? No wonder parents were irate. Never mind that the rules said NOTHING about having a 3-wheel car, or that 3-wheel cars had been the norm in packs and district for as long as I've known. Now this year the recently posted rules say all cars must have 4 wheels touching. Well, most of the Packs have already run their derbies and many have used the 3-wheel rule for years. Now we and others have to change the cars and possibly build new cars because of this rule, and other silly new rules. Had the change in the rules been published well in advance of these derbies and if they had been communicated to each Pack at the beginning of the school year, everyone could have been on the same playing field, and this mess could have been avoided. Most aggravating is that one of last summer's scout magazines even suggested building a 3-wheel car!
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Re: Question for fellow District PWD Chairs

Post by pack529holycross »

My recommendation with the specific gripe about extended WB cars at the Pack level (IF you have a BESTRACK or other tight-radius transition system ) is to do this: Publish the numberous discussions within this forum and on the internet confirming that long WB cars are at a distinct disadvantage on tight radius tracks, and as a result they are not permitted to preclude giving reg WB cars a performance advantage in the District Race. We had an "afterthought" blow up with one parent who thought the winning car won due to long WB, but in analyzing the race data his brother with an identical car didnt even get into the finals. I published the information about Long WB vs. tight radius transitions and the issue immediately fizzled to a non-issue.

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Re: Question for fellow District PWD Chairs

Post by jbofkc »

Wow - touching the cars after impounding. I do not come close to having enough nerve to do this. Amazingly bold and foolish decision.

Is posting district rules in December too late? Most kits are distributed at the December pack meeting. Yes, I know some designs are thought of before this, but it can not be a large percentage. I plan on holding this post next year so any adjustments can be made and post them in October or so. No need to wait if the rules are ready.

Holy Cross - I do not recall reading anything about extended wheelbases being at a disadvantage on Best Track. This is what we run. I will need to look into this.
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Re: Question for fellow District PWD Chairs

Post by joe »

jb, probably December is not too late, but notification of same needs to be broad and unmistakeable. You're right, most cars are made in January/Feb. I know in our case, just posting the rules on the internet is not enough because without a formal communique to each Pack, nobody would have a clue that the district rules have changed. Nor should they be expected to know what was coming down the pike without some sort of heads-up. If this is simply a case of one Pack that didn't get the message, I think you are on solid ground. But how many didn't get the information in timely manner, or didn't understand what was being changed, etc? In the case of the extended wheelbase, it sounds like that modification hasn't been allowed in the past anyway?
In our case, I think it's stupid. What are we doing? Making a lot of kids rebuild their cars because we don't want one to be faster than another?
My son followed the rules, and doesn't want to build another car, but he has to if he wants to race. --It's not only dropping the 4th wheel to touch, another new rule says the distance from the front of the car to the axle cannot change from the original pine block - so we're out of luck since we cutoff 3/8" from the back and glued it on the front.
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Re: Question for fellow District PWD Chairs

Post by jbofkc »

1 - Rules posted on district website - December.
2 - Rules and notification e-mailed through professional scouter for district at the same time - December.
3 - Information shared at roundtable in January and February. December was cancelled due to weather.
4 - Recently, e-mailed important derby information to unit commissioner's and roundtable attendees e-mail list asking each to get this information into the proper hands.

Trying to spread the word as best I can and quickly as I can. I hope it has been effective. Just volunteering my quoted one our per week for Scouts!?!?! Enjoying every bit of it and thats a fact!
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Re: Question for fellow District PWD Chairs

Post by Nooby »

My suggestion is that if there is a district race, there should be no such
thing as "pack" rules. Only district rules are needed - and distributed
to packs.

Every set of rules that I have looked at are slightly different. End the
confusion - get the rules out early.

By the way, our we raced the pack and our district rules aren't out yet.
Last year's district rules were just a copy of "pack" rules for the group
that hosted the district. They differ from our pack rules. Who is making
this years rules? - don't have a clue.

Any variance in rules will just open up an avenue for potential controversy.
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Re: Question for fellow District PWD Chairs

Post by 3 Cub Dad »

Nooby,

I agree. We got the rules out to our packs on Jan 3rd. I know that several of the packs took the district rules and handed them out and said thse are the rules we are running by!

(Since I wrote my pack and the district, our's matches!)
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Re: Question for fellow District PWD Chairs

Post by Nooby »

January 3rd sounds good. But, when were the kits given to the scouts?

We got our race rules 6 days before the race and had to start over.
The excuse was that the race committee never met. Since we were new
to the area, and no rules were given out - we went for extended wheelbase.
In the old pack, extended wheelbase was the norm.

Rules should go with the car kits. That way if we don't start until the last
week it is our fault - not the organizer's.

btw, I've run a derby, and it can be a thankless job. But, the more effort
the organizers put into it, the better it is for the kids.
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Re: Question for fellow District PWD Chairs

Post by joe »

jb, it sounds to me that you have made a conscientous and honest effort to get the rules out in time. Probably a number of scoutmasters did not see the information as urgent or even important, and didn't give it a second thought. If the Roundtable in December would not have been cancelled, the message would probably have been better delivered. Heck, we can't even get scouts to meetings by sending e-mail. Probably the rules themselves are NOT as important as the rules being consistent throughout the district. We all want to make our cars as fast as we can, so there will be plenty of complaints as to why this, or why that, but in the end if everyone is playing by the same rules, then at least it is "fair."
Are you allowing lightened wheels, "bought wheels," grooved axles, etc? If you are not allowing grooved axles, I would strongly recommend that you DO NOT pull axles at pre-race inspection. If there is a suspect, check them AFTER the race, so as not to destroy any careful alignment. That would be a common courtesy and presumption of innocence I think. Personally I don't have a problem with any of these ideas except for folks buying ready made lightened wheels/axles. If you want to lighten wheels or groove axles, a person can figure out how to do it. Kids can do it too!
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Re: Question for fellow District PWD Chairs

Post by jbofkc »

Good stuff guys.

No District Chair veterans have informed me to wear the body armor I have accessible through the police department. Don't want to take any body blows. My face is too high up for most to get a clean shot at.

Joe - on your honor with any axle and hub preps. Folks are to use BSA kit materials. Tampering with the wheel outside of truing for roundness, general and light smoothing, removing burrs from mold marks and slight coning of the hub is a big no no.

I do not even want to think about telling someone an axle needs to be pulled right before a race. This spells trouble. We look as best we can.

Nooby - you summed it up. All packs should just adopt the district rules. I had several packs e-mail me that they had done just that. If you want a new set of rules - become district PWD chair and get them out plenty early if you are going to radically change the rules.
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