Assistance needed - Pros with a Keep Eye

[pack529holycross]

I am providing derby services for the first time next week, and this is a very big corporate event. CEO's and VP's of very large companies are building cars, so I am walking a very fine line between event promoter and event enforcer.

Here is my issue..... I can already see non-bsa wheels on three of the cars that have been built for this event. I need to get your best guess and expert observations on the following points:

Are any of the cars you see below precut or EBAY cars?

Can you identify the type of wheels used in the pictures below?

Do the wheels pictured below, if the turn out to be the wheels you think they are, represent a significant performance weight advantage over BSA "out of the box" wheels?

Thank you in advance for your assistance in this important matter.

[3 Cub Dad]

pack529,

PineCar premium kit cars. Check this link:

http://www.pinecar.com/

Solid axle makes alignment easier.

One of these won our open class last year with very little work done on it.


Interesting political problem!

[Stan Pope]

Pretty cars! Tough job!

In such situations, I have deferred to a vote of their peers. State the issue and ask for a voice vote on Allow or Disallow. May keep you out of hot water! Might also offer vote on alternative of entry into "Outlaw" class, though I think I'd call it something else, e.g. "Innovators" class???

Appear to use solid axles which gives a bit of advantage in alignment for novice builders. Can't help on bodies, though.

Darn! If I were 30 years younger and a lot less married, I'd ask you to introduce me to the builder of the pink car!

[Randy and Son]

Well the wheels are PineCar for sure. IMHO these represent an advantage over BSA wheels. Far less prep work needed, if any. I believe they are much truer and round right out of the box.

It looks to me like the bodies are precut PineCars as well. If the cars you are showing have solid axles then that helps them also.

A precut PineCar got into our race last year and won.

Glad I don't have to play diplomat in this event.

Randy

EDIT:

Yup, I agree with 3 Cub Dad. PineCar Premium kits. And they come with solid axles although PineCar nails could have been substituted.

[GravityRacer]

Well. The obvious:

Did you publish a list of rules?

IMPORTANT NOTE:

People who get into positions of power get there by a number of means.

1. Technical Acumen.
2. Excellent interpersonal skills.
3. Intimidation.
4. ...

Once they get there, just the gravitas of being a "VIP" gives all kinds of "poetic license" for these folks to abuse those around them. It can happen in as simple/complex a situation as parrot_racing ran into with a Cubmaster, even for the President of the United States, when it comes to interns.

It depends on what this event is for. I expect that enforcement, if you didn't publish rules in advance is going to be way uphill...and even if you did, it's going to be uphill. Bigshots get there by remaking the rules and enforcing them. If you are just a worker in the place, and are supplying the track and such, I'd say you have little chance of getting anywhere. [/cynical 55-year old guy]

[pack529holycross]

OK.. let me ask this additional question... ASSUMING that the contestants are not capable of prepping cars for competition....

Which cars are more likely to perform better - pinecars with solid axles, pinecar wheels, but NO prepwork on the wheels and axles...

OR

BSA axles and wheels that have been deburred, polished, and trued ?

[jkracing]

Ok pack529, if you have someone just put pine car wheels and axles on a car with no prep work and someone that knows what he is doing and preps bsa wheels and axles.i would say bsa wins every time.back to the rules part if the rules say bsa wheels only it should be that because ther is a advantage with the pine car stuff.if the race is only for fun i would tell the pine cars about it ask the rest of racers if they care if the pine cars race this year.hope this helps let us know how the race goes.


jk racing
kelly

[3 Cub Dad]

OK.. let me ask this additional question... ASSUMING that the contestants are not capable of prepping cars for competition....

Which cars are more likely to perform better - pinecars with solid axles, pinecar wheels, but NO prepwork on the wheels and axles...

OR

BSA axles and wheels that have been deburred, polished, and trued ?

The pinecar kit that won our open last year had no work done on the axles or wheels, (I know the guy, he entered as a lark for his 3-year old son), only work done was weight addition. It beat cars with prepped BSA wheels and axles.

[Randy and Son]

One time we raced a BSA car against a pre-cut PineCar. We had fully prepped everything and the PineCar had little prep work.

We won the race but it was very close with the PineCar. Here's what it took for us to win though.

1. We had 4 ounces of tungsten weight mounted low and rearward. The PineCar had 2 of those tubular zinc weights running length wise with the car and mounted high.

2. We were rail riding. PineCar was not and had nasty wiggle over the last few feet.

3. The car's owner even asked me to help him lube the car just before the races. There was no lube on it at all prior to that time. So there was not much graphite break-in.

But I could tell from spinning those wheels that it didn't need much. You could just tell from feel alone, that those wheels were going to be fast.

We managed to win 5 out of 6 heats against that car by a half car length or less and lost one heat by a nose.

I think with a change of weight or better alignment that car could have beaten us easily. It also was very fast off the start.

Randy

[Randy and Son]

From looking at the pictures you posted, it appears that those cars have hub caps on the axles to hold the wheels on which means these cars have solid axles. This will give them an edge on the other competitors when it comes to alignment if straight-on alignment is the objective.

If the ability or time to prep a car is the issue, maybe you need two different divisions. One for these cars and one for the others.

Randy

[TAL]

I do believe Pine car wheels come in different mold numbers (or did at one time) just as the Bsa wheels do, good and bad molds in both types.

But I also believe if you have 25 Bsa wheels and 25 pinecar wheels you would probably find a better set of four in the pine car wheels.

I managed to go through about 75 pinecar wheels and I do have a set that the wheels and axles have nothing done to them and the car is very competative and generally wins against most stock Bsa cars that I race.

If your rules do not state BSA wheels only then you will probably see some other type of wheels also such as Pine-Pro, royal racers which also has 3/8" wide and also a 1/4" razor wheel, and their is also another type of wheels from china that also has 5 spokes and kinda looks like the pine car wheels and they are really light out of the pack but are very hard to work, but are stock wheels.

Just let everybody bring what they have and make divisions accordingly.

3 or more participants have to be in the division or the cars in that division
get bumped up to the next compatible division.

Something like
Stock: Wide bsa wheels only.

Open Stock : Wide wheels from Pine pro , pine car, Royal Racers and so on.


Modified : Any wheel that has been heavily modified by not understanding the rules or any wheel that does'nt fall in the above divisions.

Extreme Mod: heavily modified and also added items such as bearing , bushings, etc.

Also Extreme division allows the cheif VIP to run his $50.00 razor commercial wheels , $30.00 tungsten plates and he feels he did'nt waste his $20.00 paying the janitor for building his car. LOL

[Darin McGrew]

back to the rules part if the rules say bsa wheels only it should be that because ther is a advantage with the pine car stuff.

IMHO, it should not matter whether the non-standard wheels are fast or slow. If you're trying to have everyone start with the same kit, then everyone should use the same kit, especially the wheels and axles. It's just part of making sure that everyone is playing the same game.

When we've had cars show up with non-standard wheels and axles, we just hand them a spare set of standard wheels and axles and direct them to the pit table, where volunteers can help them swap their wheels. We don't check whether the non-standard wheels are faster or slower than the standard wheels.

Of course, if your rules allow them to use any wheels available, then that's a different game. But in that case, why would the OP ask about the non-BSA wheels in the first place?

[pack529holycross]

back to the rules part if the rules say bsa wheels only it should be that because ther is a advantage with the pine car stuff.

IMHO, it should not matter whether the non-standard wheels are fast or slow. If you're trying to have everyone start with the same kit, then everyone should use the same kit, especially the wheels and axles. It's just part of making sure that everyone is playing the same game.

When we've had cars show up with non-standard wheels and axles, we just hand them a spare set of standard wheels and axles and direct them to the pit table, where volunteers can help them swap their wheels. We don't check whether the non-standard wheels are faster or slower than the standard wheels.

Of course, if your rules allow them to use any wheels available, then that's a different game. But in that case, why would the OP ask about the non-BSA wheels in the first place?

Essentially, I used a solid set of rules that included a description of the BSA kit to purchase if you are building your own car. I took 12 kits, split them in half, and Im making 24 cars to have prepped for day-of entries into the racing. So far I see 7 cars that have been prepared, pictures shown above... and what they did was order a bunch from PineCar.com and didn't pay attention to the wheels that came with the kit. More of an issue of not knowing what to order than deliberate manipulation of the rules.

All will be allowed to race. This is the National Association of this industry, and their giant corporate convention, so telling the CEO of RedBull that she cannot race her car is ... not smart.

I am going to be on property at about 4pm with tons of time to set up... so I will be curious about the performance of the cars - this is a paid corporate gig, so just making sure that all the cars generally go down the track in the same 2 foot section is my ultimate goal - close racing and everyone cheering on their corporate entry.

Our track is the 49ft BestTrack, and with the Finish Line set at the farthest / Largest holes top time in our Pack event was around 3.72, with most "competitive" cars averaging between 3.75 - 3.85. I surely hope that the Pinecars are competitive enough to make up for a lack of wheel prep, and not coming in at 3.25 and blowing away my BSA cars, that are very well prepped. There is also the issue of that "Capitol" building car smashing its head on the finish line as it goes under.... lol

Does anyone have any personal experience with BestTrack/MicroWizard in the daylight/outdoors, with regards to good methods for shadowboxing the sensors underneath? I plan to have a 10' Tent over the finish area, so this should be an experience and a half.

[3 Cub Dad]

Does anyone have any personal experience with BestTrack/MicroWizard in the daylight/outdoors, with regards to good methods for shadowboxing the sensors underneath? I plan to have a 10' Tent over the finish area, so this should be an experience and a half.

Best immediate reccomendation is to move the finishline sensor from the furthest biggest holes to the closest smallest holes! If you do NOTHING else, you really need to do this. Those bigger holes can even be a problem with flash photography, let alone outdoor light. If you take a look at the papers that came with the MicroWizard, you'll see that this is their recommendation also. You're really only talking about 6" of difference, and it's a piece of cake to move on the BestTrack.

Good Luck!

Steve

[Stan Pope]

Hmmm... Things to think about:

That is a pretty long track. If you have inexperienced builders, I think you should expect a few DNF runs due to alignment issues typical of BSA kits. If the builders are experienced, then I'd worry less. If the track were 28', then I'd worry less. Will entrants be racing their own cars? How would the CEO of RedBull react if she had to walk 20' up-track from the finish line to retrieve her DNF?