2009 Evolution - PWD for the future - UPDATED MAY 27

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pack529holycross
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2009 Evolution - PWD for the future - UPDATED MAY 27

Post by pack529holycross »

I wanted to get some feedback on a few things, as I have been asked to pen the District rules for next year. ( REVISED ****5/18/2008***** )

I am drafting rules that take into account what I feel is an integral part of the REASON PWD exists - kids building cars with their parents.

With that premise, there needs to be a balance (IMHO) between restricting unfair PERFORMANCE advantages to balance the field, and restricting access to the entire project by parents who might not feel at all comfortable taking a block of wood and creating a car out of it. This would be PRIMARILY geared towards Tiger Scouts, who would need the highest level of Parent involvement and help of all the levels within Scouting.

I am of the mind that a precut, unsanded, unpainted, car body does NOT provide any single scout with any significant PERFORMANCE advantage, and since the knowledge of the fact that it is a precut body would not be a secret, it would not become a factor ( weighted ) in judging design awards. ( I.E. cars would be judged on most stickers, best taped off paint job, handpainted creativity, etc.

Having said that, here is my first draft of rules governing the materials required for PWD cars: DISCLAIMER** Any similarity between what I am drafting and existing rulesets is completely intentional, as I fully endorse and encourage copying and reuse of anything I create as well**


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Table of Contents
FORWARD 2
Purpose for these rules 2
Official 2008-2009 Rules Details 2
A NOTE ABOUT SPORTSMANSHIP 3
GENERAL CONSTRUCTION TIPS 4
PWD MATERIALS AND DIMENSIONS 5
Purpose for these rules 5
Official 2008-2009 Acceptable Materials and Resources 5
Official 2008-2009 Dimensions and Clearances 6
PWD WHEEL REGULATIONS 7
Purpose for these rules 7
Official 2008-2009 Wheel Regulations ( photos provided to clarify ) 7
Images of APPROVED wheel modifications 8
Images of NON-APPROVED wheel modifications 9
PWD AXLE REGULATIONS 10
Purpose for these rules 10
Official 2008-2009 AXLE Regulations ( photos provided to clarify ) 10
Images of APPROVED axle modifications 11
Images of NON-APPROVED axle modifications 12
PWD LUBRICATION REGULATIONS 13
Purpose for these rules 13
Official 2008-2009 LUBRICANT Regulations: 13
PWD CAR PAINT AND DECORATIONS 14
Purpose for these rules 14
Official 2008-2009 PAINT and DECORATIONS Specifications: 14

FORWARD
This document is intended to help establish guidelines for Pack Level events, as well as define the official rules and regulations for the District Level 2008-2009 Pinewood Derby Event, referred to as either “The Event” or “PWD”. Personal experiences with various scenarios and situations over the years precipitate the need for specific “answers” to potential situations that could arise in the future. Having an official decision-making process in place for these situations is expected, and with the possibility that levels of experience with coordinating PWD and creating rules will vary from Unit to Unit, We have created what we hope will be a definitive document on the subject. There is a specific reason for each piece of information contained within these 1 pages. The Official Rules comprise several types of information:
Purpose for these rules
Information shown in this format is designed to explain the background of why rules were created, what went into the thought process of trying to make the rules fair, and other background information.

Official 2008-2009 Rules Details
Information shown in this format are the specific details of a given rule
Rules are broken down for the purpose of clarifying specific details

As with most projects, this is always a work in progress, with specific rules being reviewed, revised, and revisited from year to year as needed. In the meantime, it is our hope that this document will address the vast majority of the “what if” questions ahead of time, as well as allow a LARGE amount of time between its publication and the actual event for lingering discussion and clarifications to be finalized.
Much like all other endeavors within Scouting, the District PWD is a labor of love and entirely staffed with volunteers, so please be sure to praise loudly and blame slowly with the understanding that we are all human and attempting to just keep it fun for the kids!


A NOTE ABOUT SPORTSMANSHIP
The Pinewood Derby is a parent-son project. Please feel free to give guidance and minimal assistance to your Scout as he builds his Pinewood Derby car. This is a chance for your son to be part of a team (he and you), and to enjoy the spirit of friendly competition with his peers. This project and event is also an opportunity for your Cub Scout to enjoy the satisfaction of building his own car from the kit provided.
A special note to all parents and scouts: Together, please read the following article on sportsmanship. While everyone will be trying to win, it's always a good idea to start out by remembering the Cub Scout Motto, "Do Your Best," and some of the basic ideas behind good sportsmanship.
Two things the Pinewood Derby requires each participant to learn are 1) the craft skills necessary to build a car, and 2) the rules that must be followed. Even more important, though, is how we act and behave while participating in the Pinewood Derby or any other group activity. This is called sportsmanship.
The first thing to remember about sportsmanship is that everyone's skills are a little different. You may be good at something like singing or drawing, but not as good at something else like basketball or computers. Parents have different skill levels, too. This doesn't mean that you are a good person one time and not good another time. You can always be a good person, whether or not you have good car-building skills. Remember, you and your friends are individuals first and racers second. This idea is often called having respect for others.
The second thing to remember is to follow the rules. Without rules, there would be no Pinewood Derby. You will never know if you are really good at doing something unless you follow the rules. This is often called being honest.
The third thing to remember about good sportsmanship is that there are winners and losers in every competition. You accept this when you choose to compete. There may be times when you win and feel happy, and times when you lose and feel unhappy. Being a winner is easy, and losing is sometimes hard. If you win, you must not brag or gloat. If you lose, you must not feel jealous or bitter. To be a good sportsman, you must be able to say "I did my best" and be satisfied with the results. You must also be able to appreciate and feel happy for someone else when they run a good race or build a neat car.

GENERAL CONSTRUCTION TIPS
1. The boys and adult should make the car together as a project! It is not the intent that the parent show the Scout the garage door then walk away; nor is it the intent that the boy play video games while the adult cuts and sands. Parents should shape with the power tools and then direct the rest of the action while showing the boy each step in building a car.
2. Have fun! After all, this is what it is all about.
3. Know the rules. Being disqualified can be very embarrassing.
4. Safety first. Lets not lose any fingers.
Design Tips
1. Have your son draw a design on paper then cut it out and use it as a template. I use the paper with the little squares on it to make it easier for him. Draw a side and top view on the paper by tracing around the block of wood.
2. Keep the car a full seven inches. It has to do with the physics of velocity and length of travel of the weights.
3. Use the full 2 3/4 inches (outside wheel to outside wheel) that the rules give you. This will allow the wheels to travel farther before hitting the center strip.
4. Leave a lot of wood in the back to put in the weights.
5. Use the groove closest to the end of the block of wood as the rear axle.
6. Do not make the front of the car FULLY pointed. It is hard to set up against the starting dowels.
7. Use your imagination. Be creative. Shape has the least to do with winning. A beaver driving a log or even a pickup truck is more interesting than a wedge and will be just as fast. The aerodynamics of a small block of wood doesn't mean much in fifty feet. Below are just a few resources to help you!
A few CLICKABLE links for tips, tricks, design ideas, tools, and accessories
http://members.aol.com/StanDCmr/pwportal.html
http://derbytalk.com/index.php
http://www.winderby.com/
http://www.derbychamp.com/#
http://www.maximum-velocity.com/
http://www.[no advertising for this vendor].com/
http://www.rahul.net/mcgrew/derby/
Http://www.a2zhobbies.com
http://www.pinecar.com/
http://www.pinewoodderby.com/
http://www.pinewoodpro.com/
http://www.pinewoodextreme.com/
http://www.[no advertising for this vendor].com/
http://www.derbyworx.com/
http://grandprix-software-central.com/
http://grandprix-race-central.com/
http://www.geocities.com/~pack215/pinewood.html
http://members.aol.com/randywoo/pine/
http://www.danscraftsandthings.com/ista ... =3&dept=47
http://agentz.com/scouts/pinewood.shtml
http://www.fastpine.com/?source=www.ark ... ing/Derbys
http://win-edge.com/PinewoodDerby.shtml
http://www.maximumvelocity.com/
http://www.sentrysolutions.com/pinewoodderby.shtml
http://www.pinepro.com/

PWD MATERIALS AND DIMENSIONS
Purpose for these rules
A scout's role in the craftsmanship of their car should be appropriate for their age. They will need lots of help the first year. By the last year they will be capable of independent work, and get a greater sense of pride from doing it by themselves. We encourage each scout in our district to do as much as they can, and have offered the following guidelines over the years. It is the responsibility of individual Pack Leadership to guide, instruct, and foster true collaboration in the building of PWD cars. Let us all remember that the objective of this facet of Scouting is to develop the skills necessary to design, build, and assemble an original design from basic raw materials, and that PWD RACING is the benefit of that effort, and NOT the reverse. By shortcutting the design and construction process, we as parents are simply cheating our kids out of the developmental skills that this project is designed to provide. Please – leave the EBAY cars to those who might have not figured that out! These rules are provided to establish a “baseline” from which all Scouts express their creativity and field a competitive car. These rules also attempt to establish a reasonable ceiling for modifications that would be within the DIY capabilities of a 7-11 year old child.

There are four primary portions of BSA PINEWOOD DERBY Car Bodies covered within the official rules:

1.Expected Involvement by the Scout ( unenforceable at the District Level )
2.Acceptable Materials and Resources
3.Dimensions and Clearances of Finished PWD Cars
4.Performance Modifications – Approved and Non-Approved

Official 2008-2009 Acceptable Materials and Resources
Tigers & Wolves: PRECUT ( but not PRE-SANDED or PRE-PAINTED ) car bodies are approved at the Tiger / Wolf level, provided they meet all size and wheelbase specifications set forth in these rules. Cars should show some involvement by the Scout in the design and painting process, I.E. allowing them to mask off areas for different colors sprayed on the car, or application of stickers themselves.
Bears & WEBELOS: PRECUT car bodies are not approved at the Bears/WEBELOS Level. Design concepts CAN be copied from existing designs, but construction must include the Scout. Add=on Fenders, Spoilers, and other such non-wood design elements are permitted.

Official 2008-2009 Dimensions and Clearances
Width – WIDEST Point of PWD Car not to exceed 2-3/4”
Height – HIGHEST Point of PWD Car not to exceed 4”
Length – LONGEST front-to-back distance not to exceed 7”
Chassis Clearance - 3/8” inch minimum is recommended. Any car with less of a clearance will be checked on the track to ensure that there will not be any interference with the track. Although the center lane is not solid, the transition to the stop section IS solid and the undercarriage may cause a wreck.
Track ( Width Between Wheels ) – will not be less than 1-3/4”
Wheelbase – Use of the existing BSA Axle Slots is required. Orientation of the Car Body ( front to back ) is at your discretion. Axle Holes, Relocating Slots, or otherwise using alternative mounting locations for the axles is not-approved.
Front Nose – Starting Pins are round and are approximately 1 1/2” high. The nose of the car can not be grooved or slotted in any manner which causes it to have the front of the car past the starting peg and that will place the front of the car closer to the finish gate. The front of the PWD car should make contact with the starting pin at a point NO HIGHER than 1/4” above the axle line.
The car must be freewheeling, with no starting devices. Gravity shall be the only energy source.
Magnets, Liquid weights, or slip weights are prohibited. All weights must be securely attached to the car.
No loose material of any kind, such as lead shot, may be used.

PWD WHEEL REGULATIONS
Purpose for these rules
Creating TRUE WHEELS through sanding, lathing, or otherwise turning wheels to remove imperfections on the OUTSIDE contact patch creates several benefits for the Event as well as the Scouts. The primary benefit to the Event is that these rules will help to prevent significant unfair advantages created through modification techniques that are WELL BEYOND the capabilities of a 7 – 11 year old child. Through these rules, which attempt to equalize the wheels used on PWD cars, the Event will be more competitive and exciting for the boys. The primary benefit to the Scouts is that PWD cars with TRUE WHEELS tend to stay on the track, have fewer problems with wheels falling off, and generally contribute LESS to interference with other cars.

There are four primary portions of BSA PINEWOOD DERBY wheels covered by the rules:
1.EXTERIOR “face” ( Where the BSA lettering appears )
2.INTERIOR Section ( Includes section that shows “Official BSA” and “Made in USA” )
3.OUTSIDE Contact Patch / Tread
4.HUB ( Portion that supports the nail and comes into contact with the body of the car )

Official 2008-2009 Wheel Regulations ( photos provided to clarify )
Wheels cannot weigh LESS than 3.3 grams each (stock BSA wheels weigh 3.6 grams each )
Wheels MUST show 'Official BSA' 'Made in USA' on the INTERIOR Section. NO materials may be removed from the INTERIOR Section.
Wheels MUST show 'BSA' and 'Pinewood Derby' on the EXTERIOR FACE Section. NO materials may be removed from the EXTERIOR FACE Section.
HUB portion must be FLAT across the body contact portion ( no coning or beveling )
OUTSIDE Contact Patch / Tread must be FLAT across the entire contact patch
All FOUR Wheels must make LEVEL contact with the track
Although there are many sources you might use for the purchase of BSA Wheels, and it would not be practical to attempt to track wheel sources, any wheels used must still conform to the specifications set forth in these rules.
Wheel bearings, washers or bushings are prohibited.
The car must not ride on any type of springs.

Images of APPROVED wheel modifications





Images of NON-APPROVED wheel modifications





PWD AXLE REGULATIONS
Purpose for these rules
Creating SMOOTH AXLES through sanding, lathing, polishing or otherwise turning AXLES to remove imperfections creates several benefits for the Event as well as the Scouts. The primary benefit to the Event is that these rules will help to prevent significant unfair advantages created through modification techniques that are WELL BEYOND the capabilities of a 7 – 11 year old child. Through these rules, which attempt to equalize the AXLES used on PWD cars, the Event will be more competitive and exciting for the boys. The primary benefit to the Scouts is that PWD cars with SMOOTH AXLES tend to stay on the track, tend to remain competitive with other cars, and generally contribute LESS to interference with other cars.

There are three primary portions of BSA PINEWOOD DERBY AXLES covered within the official rules:

1.HEAD OF NAIL/AXLE
2.SHAFT OF NAIL/AXLE
3.TIP OF NAIL/AXLE

Official 2008-2009 AXLE Regulations ( photos provided to clarify )
AXLES must conform to the shape, dimensions and raw materials used for official BSA axles supplied in official BSA PWD kits. This translates to a prohibition on NAILS/AXLES created from a different metal and shaped to conform with the dimensions of official BSA NAILS/AXLES.
Stock BSA axles are zinc plated. No additional / alternative coating or plating is permitted – chromed, nickel-plated, graphite, etc.
TIPS OF AXLES must conform to the shape and dimensions used for official BSA axles supplied in official BSA PWD kits.
HEADS OF AXLES must be FLAT across the wheel contact portion ( no beveling )Although there are many sources for the purchase of BSA AXLES, and it would not be practical to attempt to track AXLE sources, any AXLES used must still conform to the specifications set forth in these rules.


Images of APPROVED axle modifications





Images of NON-APPROVED axle modifications





PWD LUBRICATION REGULATIONS
Purpose for these rules
Liquid lubricants may not be compatible with the plastic wheels and actually damage them. Our concern with lubricants is that anything other than dry graphite does not drop on the track affecting the operation of other derby cars. Lubrication is messy! On race day all lubrication must be done at the "lube" station. THE GRAPHITE WILL STAIN THE FLOORS AND CARPETS.

Official 2008-2009 LUBRICANT Regulations:

Only dry lubricants such as graphite or powdered Teflon "white lube" will be allowed for lubricating the wheels. Lubricants must not foul the track.
Lubricants may only be applied within the designated “PIT AREA”. This area will have protective tarps to prevent graphite from staining and damaging the carpeting within the Event Venue.
Workstation space will be available to make adjustments to weight, lubrication, etc. To protect the carpeting, NO other areas of the Event Venue are to be used as a work station.
Entrants must apply lubricant prior to final inspection and impounding of their PWD Cars. No additional lubrication will be permitted during racing. Entrants who's PWD Car has advanced to the District Finals will have the opportunity re-apply lubrication before the beginning of the first race of the Event Overall Finals.
The recommended wheel and axle lubricant is dry, powdered graphite.
Wet lubricants such as oils, silicones or waxes are prohibited. Use only a Graphite or Graphite/Moly Lubricant.
Lubricated Axles must come in contact with the interior of the Wheel Bore. Wheel Bore inserts or sleeves are not permitted. Washers, bushings, or other freewheeling spacers are not permitted.
Graphite Pads which are permanently attached to the car body, do not move, and provide lubrication to the Hub Contact Area are permitted.

PWD FINAL FINISH REGULATIONS
Purpose for these rules
The purpose for these rules is to insure that the PWD Event is conducted in a safe and fair manner. Any items prohibited by these rules are designated as such due to the potential for interference with other cars, as well as causing damage to the track or other equipment, including personnel and spectators.

Official 2008-2009 PAINT and DECORATIONS Specifications:

Only DRY PWD cars will be cleared for racing. Wet or tacky glue, paint, or any other applied substance has the opportunity to stain carpeting, fall off the car onto the track or other equipment, and generally contribute to a higher potential for a messy situation.
Details such as steering wheels, drivers, spoilers, and decals are permissible so long as these details are permanently attached and the PWD car does not exceed the width, length, height, clearance and weight specifications.
Assigned numbers will be temporarily attached to the car with a colored dot by the racing staff at the time of registration. Other numbers (decals) may appear on the car, but the assigned number will be used for tracking the cars by the racing staff.
Last edited by pack529holycross on Tue May 27, 2008 10:34 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: 2009 Evolution - PWD for the future

Post by 3 Cub Dad »

I understand the direction you're headed but I see a couple of pitfalls in your approach. (I'm personally of two minds about precut kits.... you're right, they really don't have a bearing on the speed competition, but they are a big impact on the design competition!!)

First, I'd limit pre-cut to Tigers and Wolves. Leave the years of scouting out of it. What about a Webelos who is in his 1st year of scouting? (we had one)

Second, the biggest problem I see is stating that the "vendor" has to use a BSA pine block..... THE most prevalent and available pre-cut bodies are from PineCar. They're made of pine, but they don't start with a BSA block! Only a few of the on-line vendors or e-bay sellers will certify that they start with a BSA block. If you read the fine print, most say they start with a block meeting the BSA specifications. In other words, it's a piece of pine 7" long! :D Now the sticky part.... How do you differentiate between a pre-cut PineCar body, which as we said really has no speed advantage, versus a pre-cut, pre-drilled, weight pockets cut out, exact amount of weight needed included, kit? Those CAN be speed advantages. It's a slippery slope.

We attack it from a different manner, with a well run workshop. We had all seven of our Tigers this year cut out their own cars, file and sand their axles, drill out for weights, and sand their wheels. One of them finished 4th in the Pack! Since the goal of the PWD is not only competition, but learning the necessary skills, I think this manner accomplished it much better.

Last note, if you do go down this path, make sure in big BOLD type, you specify that the wheels and axles that come with the pre-cut cars cannot be used.

Good Luck!

3CD
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Re: 2009 Evolution - PWD for the future

Post by pack529holycross »

3 Cub Dad wrote:I understand the direction you're headed but I see a couple of pitfalls in your approach. (I'm personally of two minds about precut kits.... you're right, they really don't have a bearing on the speed competition, but they are a big impact on the design competition!!)

First, I'd limit pre-cut to Tigers and Wolves. Leave the years of scouting out of it. What about a Webelos who is in his 1st year of scouting? (we had one)

Second, the biggest problem I see is stating that the "vendor" has to use a BSA pine block..... THE most prevalent and available pre-cut bodies are from PineCar. They're made of pine, but they don't start with a BSA block! Only a few of the on-line vendors or e-bay sellers will certify that they start with a BSA block. If you read the fine print, most say they start with a block meeting the BSA specifications. In other words, it's a piece of pine 7" long! :D Now the sticky part.... How do you differentiate between a pre-cut PineCar body, which as we said really has no speed advantage, versus a pre-cut, pre-drilled, weight pockets cut out, exact amount of weight needed included, kit? Those CAN be speed advantages. It's a slippery slope.

We attack it from a different manner, with a well run workshop. We had all seven of our Tigers this year cut out their own cars, file and sand their axles, drill out for weights, and sand their wheels. One of them finished 4th in the Pack! Since the goal of the PWD is not only competition, but learning the necessary skills, I think this manner accomplished it much better.

Last note, if you do go down this path, make sure in big BOLD type, you specify that the wheels and axles that come with the pre-cut cars cannot be used.

Good Luck!

3CD
I actually saw a vendor who buys the BSA kits, rough cuts the car in very basic ways, then resells the boxed components.. I will try to find the website and repost it.... I agree that everyone should be able to access SOMEONE who can make a basic body rough cut, but my mind is always on the goal of 100% participation, and trying to remove any barriers to participation where possible.

SO that I read your recommended revision correctly - you think Tigers Wolves - approved use. Bears and WEBELOS - original design work only.

I think that simplifies the rules to two categories rather than three... thanks!

Nicholas
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Re: 2009 Evolution - PWD for the future

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pack529holycross wrote:I actually saw a vendor who buys the BSA kits, rough cuts the car in very basic ways, then resells the boxed components.. I will try to find the website and repost it.... I agree that everyone should be able to access SOMEONE who can make a basic body rough cut, but my mind is always on the goal of 100% participation, and trying to remove any barriers to participation where possible.
If your goal is 100% participation, then I would think you would have to allow the PineCar bodies. Not just something from one specific vendor. The PineCar bodies are the ones at most hobby shops, Ben Franklins, etc.

pack529holycross wrote:SO that I read your recommended revision correctly - you think Tigers Wolves - approved use. Bears and WEBELOS - original design work only.

I think that simplifies the rules to two categories rather than three... thanks!

Nicholas
Yes, Bears should be more able to complete more of the work.

Steve
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Re: 2009 Evolution - PWD for the future

Post by Darin McGrew »

pack529holycross wrote:Add on Fenders, Spoilers, Model Car Canopies, and other such non-wood design elements are still permitted, so long as the MAJORITY of the materials used in the PWD Car are created from raw wood.
How do you define "MAJORITY of the materials"?

If measured by weight, then a lot of cars are going to have more than 2.5oz of lead, tungsten, tin, or other weights. Even if you measure by volume, a rail car with an aggressive CM could have less than 50% wood by volume. And that's without considering creative designs that add decorations made something other than wood, or wooden decorations that were bought (not "created from raw wood").
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Re: 2009 Evolution - PWD for the future

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Darin McGrew wrote:
pack529holycross wrote:Add on Fenders, Spoilers, Model Car Canopies, and other such non-wood design elements are still permitted, so long as the MAJORITY of the materials used in the PWD Car are created from raw wood.
How do you define "MAJORITY of the materials"?

If measured by weight, then a lot of cars are going to have more than 2.5oz of lead, tungsten, tin, or other weights. Even if you measure by volume, a rail car with an aggressive CM could have less than 50% wood by volume. And that's without considering creative designs that add decorations made something other than wood, or wooden decorations that were bought (not "created from raw wood").
it was more asthetically than weight - I have seen several all foam or plastic shells mounted to wooden "skateboards", and I had thought I would try to address that in the specs... but since I eliminated the middle spec, and went with fully approved and fully worked cars....that section went in the trash ( for now )
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Re: 2009 Evolution - PWD for the future

Post by Darin McGrew »

pack529holycross wrote:Add on Fenders, Spoilers, Model Car Canopies, and other such non-wood design elements are still permitted, so long as the MAJORITY of the materials used in the PWD Car are created from raw wood.
Darin McGrew wrote:How do you define "MAJORITY of the materials"?

If measured by weight, then a lot of cars are going to have more than 2.5oz of lead, tungsten, tin, or other weights. Even if you measure by volume, a rail car with an aggressive CM could have less than 50% wood by volume. And that's without considering creative designs that add decorations made something other than wood, or wooden decorations that were bought (not "created from raw wood").
pack529holycross wrote:it was more asthetically than weight - I have seen several all foam or plastic shells mounted to wooden "skateboards", and I had thought I would try to address that in the specs... but since I eliminated the middle spec, and went with fully approved and fully worked cars....that section went in the trash ( for now )
I guess I don't understand what problem you're trying to address. I've used various materials to make decorative shells for some of my derby cars and never worried about it.

Do you have a problem with rail cars? With thin slabs that do not have decorative shells attached to them? With thin slabs that do have decorative shells attached to them? With thin slabs that have non-wood decorative shells attached to them?
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Re: 2009 Evolution - PWD for the future

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Basic Question - what is the height of the exposed portion of the starting pins on a BESTRACK?
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Re: 2009 Evolution - PWD for the future

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I think you are on the wrong track. You are attempting to make what is inherently simple difficult. What you propose with kit bodies undermines the goal.

Build the car from BSA kit parts. But if a kid shows up with a precut body, dont exclude them. What we have seen is they show up with the body, AND the wheels, (and the wheels arent legal)

100% for webelos?? It is considered by most to be a parent/son project.! The whole idea is to spend time together with the kid working on something together. Thats what cub scouting is about! There is nothing in cub scouting that the scout does by themselves. Personally, my son does everything under my direction. But when it comes to alignment its basically all me. He doesnt have the patience to shim and test and shim and test and reshim and retest for hours. No kid does. To me thats the parents part of the job.

I have a friend who runs derbys and won their council for several yrs in a row. He never let the kids touch the wheels or axles, only the car. Thats the reality at district and higher levels. You will penalize your son if you dont help at those levels.


Offer workshops where tools are available to all who dont have them to build the cars. Do this on at least 2 or 3 weekends well in advance. Then anyone can cut a car out and sand wheels and polish axles. To have a basic car only takes a few hrs this way. To have a pack winner takes more attention to detail.

When we first started, I only had acess to a large bandsaw, so I cut the basic car outline out since it was obviously too dangerous for a 7 yr old. Even though under my instruction and help he sanded it, drilled the axle holes , painted it, polished axles, etc. my son told me he didnt feel like it was his car because he didnt cut it out. So I bought a $80 scrollsaw from harbor freight for the next yr , and we do it together. I help hold it down to keep it from chattering while he pushes and controls the cuts.

Its really simple, its a team competition, with the scout doing as much as they are able. And that is different for different scouts. I dont think 100% is ever the answer, because that by definition DISCOURAGES parent involvement.
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Re: 2009 Evolution - PWD for the future

Post by pack529holycross »

mbb wrote:I think you are on the wrong track. You are attempting to make what is inherently simple difficult. What you propose with kit bodies undermines the goal.

Build the car from BSA kit parts. But if a kid shows up with a precut body, dont exclude them. What we have seen is they show up with the body, AND the wheels, (and the wheels arent legal)

100% for webelos?? It is considered by most to be a parent/son project.! The whole idea is to spend time together with the kid working on something together. Thats what cub scouting is about! There is nothing in cub scouting that the scout does by themselves. Personally, my son does everything under my direction. But when it comes to alignment its basically all me. He doesnt have the patience to shim and test and shim and test and reshim and retest for hours. No kid does. To me thats the parents part of the job.

I have a friend who runs derbys and won their council for several yrs in a row. He never let the kids touch the wheels or axles, only the car. Thats the reality at district and higher levels. You will penalize your son if you dont help at those levels.


Offer workshops where tools are available to all who dont have them to build the cars. Do this on at least 2 or 3 weekends well in advance. Then anyone can cut a car out and sand wheels and polish axles. To have a basic car only takes a few hrs this way. To have a pack winner takes more attention to detail.

When we first started, I only had acess to a large bandsaw, so I cut the basic car outline out since it was obviously too dangerous for a 7 yr old. Even though under my instruction and help he sanded it, drilled the axle holes , painted it, polished axles, etc. my son told me he didnt feel like it was his car because he didnt cut it out. So I bought a $80 scrollsaw from harbor freight for the next yr , and we do it together. I help hold it down to keep it from chattering while he pushes and controls the cuts.

Its really simple, its a team competition, with the scout doing as much as they are able. And that is different for different scouts. I dont think 100% is ever the answer, because that by definition DISCOURAGES parent involvement.
I will work backwards - 100% means that the Scout should not be left out of any part of the design, costruction, assembly, and tuning process. The GOAL would be for the scout to be instructed how to do it, and have them do the work. I consider that full parent involvement without taking over the project entirely.

The reality is that if you build a car for PACK level, and it wins, you should take the same car to District, and then Council. It is my goal to have these rules filter through to PACK level as building two cars for two different event seems pointless. I believe that BECAUSe of the lower communication of DISTRICT rules to PACKS that cars need to " be retooled " for District and Council. A unified set of rules for all events serves to simplify the construction process, regardless of the complexity of the rules set itself.

Proposing that a person would not be able to PERSONALLY cut their car ( rough cuts ) is an accurate description of a good majority of parents. Clearly when Units collaberate on construction workshops, the need for pre-purchased rough cut cars is eliminated. But for those parents in units that have no desire or ability to create such workshops, I believe a "plan B" should exist to the " you're on your own " atmosphere that can exist. I would say that if a 7 year old boy sands down, paints, decorates, and assembles a BSA car from a pre-cut rough body, then that is ( in my opinion ) an acceptible ENTRY LEVEL expectation for this project. I am very comfortable with that allowance within the rules, because I believe that we certainly do not strap a 40 lb pack to a Tiger and say " lets go hiking " - all BSA disciplines are built on simplified fundamental skills. I am happy to help encourage an INCREASE in participation do to this type of allowance within the rules.

Nicholas
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Re: 2009 Evolution - PWD for the future

Post by mbb »

Well I have to disagree about cars, for district and council level you make a car to fit the rules. And not just different rules, different types of tracks. You have to make the car win the track at every stage, a single car might be penalized from some packs and not from others.

We have different rules, and had to make a different car for each. On the plus side, it has been a lot more time spent on it. You use what you learn to make the car better for the next race. I understand some places impound the cars, and thats not right. Whos to say what happened to a car out of sight for weeks? even unintentionally.

To me when you take the path of trying to lock in the cars at the pack level, you eliminate time spent by the scout and parent trying to improve them or building another. Thats wrong . Thats putting some rigid idea of race structure ahead of the goal of having the scout and parent spend more time together.

Kind of amazing that this has been going on for 40 yrs and yet everyone still wants to change the rules all the time, and there are still no uniform rules. Some things like ebay have become possible factors.

But its not the winning thats important. Winning only produces a cheap plastic trophy that will one day be discarded. What is important is spending time with the kids as a team working toward a goal, and teaching them about physics and powertools, etc in the process. Anything which lessens that emphasis, or discourages that, should be considered as detrimental to what the derby is about.

Lately I see what I consider to be too much emphasis on catching cheaters or rule benders, more rigid rules, and not nearly enough on promoting what the derby is supposed to be for. Believe it or not, as much as some try to get rid of them, I think the "grey areas" in the rules are good. They promote innovation and interest on the part of the parent and kid in making their car faster. The more rigid and defined the rules are, the less interest there will be. When I read of people stamping axles, blocks, and wheels to insure that people only use whats in the kit they were randomly given, and get replacement parts from leaders, I cringe. What more can you possibly do to kill the competitive spirit of PWD? In trying to prevent 100% of cheaters, they are making it boring. Its better to let cheaters win in my opinion, than handicap everyone to prevent it.

When only 5-10% of the cars at pack level look like more than 1-2 hrs of work, and 95% arent competitive at all, I think its clear we need to focus more energy on the positives and less on the negatives.
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Re: 2009 Evolution - PWD for the future

Post by pack529holycross »

mbb wrote:Well I have to disagree about cars, for district and council level you make a car to fit the rules. And not just different rules, different types of tracks. You have to make the car win the track at every stage, a single car might be penalized from some packs and not from others.




When only 5-10% of the cars at pack level look like more than 1-2 hrs of work, and 95% arent competitive at all, I think its clear we need to focus more energy on the positives and less on the negatives.
I see my development of uniform rules as being a strong step towards fair and fun racing. I would respectfully disagree with you regarding rules being MORE focused on cheaters - simply because ALL BSA rules are based on "redirecting" the wayard minds into entertaining temptations to shortcut their responsibilities. It is this fundamental cornerstone of Scouting " DO your Best! " that is instilled into PWD. I personally want to reduce the "temptation" of subscribing to the theory of " DO the best you can buy! ". To that end, I believe that having highly visible consistent rules allows everyone to RELAX, knowing that they are NOT going to have to compete with CNC'd wheels or axles. Clearly, PARENTS are far worse than the Scouts when it comes to "keeping up with the jones' PWD car", and since the Scouts are enthusiastic about seeing their creations roll down the track (2 hours of construction or 200), the rules " of engagement " are clearly designed to bring PWD back into the FUN category of events, In my opinion.
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Re: 2009 Evolution - PWD for the future

Post by mbb »

The primary problem I see with too many rules is the attempts to bring down the level of competion to the lowest denominator. In other words, because everyone cant drill axle holes, then no one can. Because everyone cant sand wheels down well, then no one can. Everyone doesnt know how to cant wheels, so they must all be flat running Everyone cant bevel axle heads, so no one can. Everyone doesnt know that an extended wheelbase is more stable, so they all must use the stock distance. Everyone isnt willing to buy and pick thru axles, blocks and wheels to find the best, so you require then to use only parts given to them and stamped with identification. Everyone doesnt know to run a 3 wheel RR so all wheels must touch. Everyone doesnt know how to lighten wheels, so no one can. Etc, etc, etc.

Almost hypocritically, many of the people that support overly restrictive rules, have the knowledge of this forum at their disposal and still know how to build the most competitive car within the rules. Many have personal tracks as well which give them a tremendous advantage. How many hold workshops and teach railriding, canting, and all the other speed tricks practiced here to win?. To persons of lesser knowledge(which is most) rules take away some of the EASY mods that they do know and are capable of, leaving them only axles to do a rough polish on. Part of the fun and alure of PWD is the discovery of the ways to make a car faster. Take those ways away.....and you just took the fun out of it.

Unfortunately, I think its all probably for naught. I dont think you can create a level playing field, because the desire, knowledge, and money that different parents are willing to commit vary greatly.

I believe just let each do "their best", even if their best IS much better than the rest based on the knowledge that they have. For 1-5%, it always will be. And then exert focus on increasing the "best" level of the rest of the group. Everyone wins.

Im all for banning ebay cars, purchased machined axles and wheels, etc.
But do so in ways that doesnt handicap or limit real effort put forth by knowledgeable scout/parent teams. In PWD as in life, sucess will reward those who gain the most knowledge and work the hardest.
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Re: 2009 Evolution - PWD for the future

Post by Darin McGrew »

mbb wrote:The primary problem I see with too many rules is the attempts to bring down the level of competion to the lowest denominator.
I don't think anyone is trying to limit everyone to the capabilities of the least capable. I think most rules are intended to preserve the nature of the project. With no rules, we'd have cars powered by rocket engines, model airplane motors, etc. With fewer rules, we'd end up with slingshot designs like the one that won the IDSA International Ultimate Derby.

The problem is that reasonable people disagree about what "the nature of the project" is, so they disagree about what rules are necessary to preserve it.
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Re: 2009 Evolution - PWD for the future

Post by mbb »

Darin McGrew wrote:
mbb wrote:The primary problem I see with too many rules is the attempts to bring down the level of competion to the lowest denominator.
I don't think anyone is trying to limit everyone to the capabilities of the least capable. I think most rules are intended to preserve the nature of the project. With no rules, we'd have cars powered by rocket engines, model airplane motors, etc. With fewer rules, we'd end up with slingshot designs like the one that won the IDSA International Ultimate Derby.

The problem is that reasonable people disagree about what "the nature of the project" is, so they disagree about what rules are necessary to preserve it.
I agree with that in some ways. I see frequently two groups.. those that think its a parent /son team project to compete seriously (probably 5-10% of scouts), and those that think its just a kid event where the parent offers virtually no help, and winning races is just pure luck (90-95% of the scouts).

There is no argument that the enthusiasts here are in the minority. But we have seen the light, we know how much fun it is, and what a great activity it can be for parents that care about spending time with their kids. If we could only get the rest to see it thatway.

Maybe the event should be defined better before setting any rules.

I will say this. Our district and council states that it is a team project for the parent and child. The child also must sign a registration form stating that he helped make the car. And thats proof enough for me that our approach is the right one.
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