Pack vs Rank races

[bad_karma_2805a1]

So last year I was the Cub Master for a small Pack, and we ran our Derby as an "Pack" race. So everyone raced against everyone. Now this year I am with a new Pack and this one is huge. I was asked to head the PWD committee and I thought sure why not.

They ran their Derby last year as a "Rank" race and once you were done you sat and watched until the end and the awards. This to me seemed kinda silly. Trying to keep close to 100 Scouts interested is a challenge. So I said we would go with a "Pack" style race.

I seem to think this is the best way to race, you get 8 races in our Pack so the kids will be busy for awhile. So am I the only one who thinks this is a better way to go?

[Gameday]

I guess it matters if your doing elimination races or aggregate timed races. We run 6 races and add the times together to determine the winners. In our case we run as Pack since it doesn't make a difference. But, if we were doing elim races I guess we'd have to run it at Den level.

[PWD_addict]

We have a fairly large Pack (60+) and we run rank races. We have opening at 12:30 (most kids show up) and then start Tiger races at 12:45 and each rank is scheduled every 30 minutes. Siblings follow Web 2s, and then the Grand Finals. We had to wait a little for the next set of races to start (only had 5 Web 1s) but people didn't have to show up until it was their turn to race. It worked out well. During the down time, the new rank hadn't shown up yet so there really weren't many people sitting around waiting. I can't imagine keeping all of those boys happy and "out of trouble" for 4 hours.

[gpraceman]

If you do group your racers by rank. There is nothing saying that you can't run one (or a few) heats of one group, do some for the next group, and so on until all heats have been run for all groups. It takes a bit more race crew coordination if you are doing this manually or your race software doesn't manage this for you. However, if you can swing it, it will keep the racers more involved.

[Dad of 3]

Our Pack has 100+ boys we race by den then have a semi finals where we take the top 2 from each den. There has been some discussion that if you come in 3rd in your den you could come in 3rd overall and our method doesn't give the 3rd place that opportunity. We have a fairly competitive race in our Pack and I have yet to see 2 from the same den in the final 4. We start with the Tigers and go to Web IIs. We experimented with having crafts and other projects to keep the boys interested last year, it seemed to work very well. I have conflicting opinions since I feel the boys should be cheering on the others, however reality sets in and says you can't keep the boys attention for 4 hours straight. Racing by Den helps the logistics of running the race in my opinion.

[PWD_addict]

There has been some discussion that if you come in 3rd in your den you could come in 3rd overall and our method doesn't give the 3rd place that opportunity.

We have the same issue. BUT, we only award 5 speed trophies (plus Sibling) so we only race the fastest in each rank in our Grand Finals. We have Spcae Derby and Raingutter Regatta and didn't want to spend too much on trophies throughout the year.

For Districts, the top three in each rank in each Pack are invited. Then, the top three in each rank during the District rank races go to the District Grand Finals. We still might miss a 4th place or so but we include more boys that way.

[Stan Pope]

Grandson's pack is big enough (40 to 50 racers) that they prefer to run races by grade (den). They stagger the races and assign arrival times accordingly.

8:00 Webelos II Inspection
8:15 Webelos II Racing
8:45 Webelos II Awards
9:00 Weelos I Inspection
...
12:45 Tiger Awards
1:00 Grand Champion Racing

The plan gets a much higher percentage of parents a "second row seat" for their son's races. (Cub Scouts get the "front row seats" during their den's race.)

This is similar to the staggered start times for our District races.

[Nitro Dan]

Our Pack has 100+ boys we race by den then have a semi finals where we take the top 2 from each den. There has been some discussion that if you come in 3rd in your den you could come in 3rd overall and our method doesn't give the 3rd place that opportunity. We have a fairly competitive race in our Pack and I have yet to see 2 from the same den in the final 4.

We used to take the top 2 from each Den as well, but then we started seeing 2 from the same den winding up in the top three for the Pack (60 some boys). Then we had to go back and check to see if the loophole had occurred based on that 3rd position. It didn't, but we decided to plug the loophole and take the top 3 from each den after that. We calculated that adding 5 more boys (one 3rd Place winner from each Den) only increase the heat count by six. Since the software we used calculated our time spent on each heat, we were able to determine that it would only increase our championship finals race by eight minutes. Trading off eight minutes to assure that the top three champions for our pack were definitely the top three, seemed very reasonable. We felt that it was better to have it this way then to give a trophy to a 3rd place winner that may not have deserved it (also dealing with one or two irate parents didn't appeal to us very much either).

-Nitro Dan

[PWD_addict]

Our Pack has 100+ boys we race by den then have a semi finals where we take the top 2 from each den. There has been some discussion that if you come in 3rd in your den you could come in 3rd overall and our method doesn't give the 3rd place that opportunity. We have a fairly competitive race in our Pack and I have yet to see 2 from the same den in the final 4.

We used to take the top 2 from each Den as well, but then we started seeing 2 from the same den winding up in the top three for the Pack (60 some boys). Then we had to go back and check to see if the loophole had occurred based on that 3rd position. It didn't, but we decided to plug the loophole and take the top 3 from each den after that. We calculated that adding 5 more boys (one 3rd Place winner from each Den) only increase the heat count by six. Since the software we used calculated our time spent on each heat, we were able to determine that it would only increase our championship finals race by eight minutes. Trading off eight minutes to assure that the top three champions for our pack were definitely the top three, seemed very reasonable. We felt that it was better to have it this way then to give a trophy to a 3rd place winner that may not have deserved it (also dealing with one or two irate parents didn't appeal to us very much either).

-Nitro Dan

I thought the same thing last year but no one has gotten upset yet (we only advance the fastest in each rank). My suggestion was to advance the first in each rank, and then the next fastest three from any rank. We run 8 races anyway so it wouldn't add any time. It would just add the cost for 3 more trophies. The only issue is that you don't really know who the next fastest three are until racing is complete. Then, you'd have to contact the fastest three to get them to come back. Sort of--I know it could be easier (like the way they do NASCAR qualification). Now that I'm CM, we may consider that next year.

[priority]

Trying to keep close to 100 Scouts interested is a challenge. So I said we would go with a "Pack" style race.

I agree.

Having seen races run both ways (Pack and Den), I have to say that what you call Pack Style (including mixing sibling cars in with Cub Scouts) racing is much more engaging for such a large group. When Den Style races are run, it seems that only the families with clearly fast cars stay for the awards. With Pack style racing, the kids don't seem to notice the extra time passing by and you end up with almost the entire pack staying through the whole event.

[mbb]

Its boring for long stretches, but racing by rank gives the kids more fun with direct competition with their denmates in my book. And additional trophies for rank.

Followed by pack overall, with at least the top 3 from each rank racing if you give out 1,2,3 place trophies.

[pack529holycross]

If you do group your racers by rank. There is nothing saying that you can't run one (or a few) heats of one group, do some for the next group, and so on until all heats have been run for all groups. It takes a bit more race crew coordination if you are doing this manually or your race software doesn't manage this for you. However, if you can swing it, it will keep the racers more involved.

I can tell you that after running all the tiger races first, then wolves, and so on, last year, we changed the process this year to insure that everyone is engaged from the beginning of the event. We have 60 scout cars, a 6 lane track, and all the electronic advantages of GPRM and an electronic timer. Additionally, we were able with confidence to decide to run each car down each lane TWICE, which netted at least 12 runs for each scout ( double what it was last year ). Here is how I improved the efficiency of this years event:

PRELOADED RACE ROSTER - put every person who could ever possibly enter a car into your roster ahead of time. Assuming you have GPRM, all you need to do on race day is "pass" those who passed, and the software does the rest for schedule generation. Additionally, you will be able to spend alot of pre-raceday time customizing the divisions, etc. I decided to separate the siblings and adults into a different race file, for ease of use.

REGISTRATION - I made up a "registration" slip, with places for each inspection station to check off "go/no go". We didn't place the race numbers on the cars until they completely passed inspection and checkin, and all of the stickers were pre-made.

RACE SCHEDULE - I decided to go with a "master" schedule, which interweaves all the different race groups, so no race group is ever running in consecutive heats ( race efficiency tip #1 - no waiting for cars to be restaged in consecutive heats ).

IMPOUND AREA - My ever ambitous den fathers made up two giant 4x8 impound boards, prenumbered and separated for safety. Additionally, they built these kind of "TV trays" color coded for the lanes, so that 6 cars could be staged on the track, plus two additional groups of cars for the following heats. Having a "tray guy", a stager, and an impound guy on each side led to what really amounted to lightning fast turnaround times - averaging 40 sec, and as quick as 32 seconds.

A few thoughts - Kids LOVE this type of schedule, but the parents are not so enthused, as the don't get to "slot" their attendance into an hour or so.

Nicholas

I will add pictures and tile links to this doc in the AM for the whole set up

[jeffd]

One thing to add - with rank racing, in theory the new scouts are just learning. THis might be unfair to them since there are scouts (or really parents) who have been doing it much longer.

THe kid who is there for his second webelos year has a few tricks a new tiger might not have yet.

[psycaz]

I'll second that last thought on rank racing. My son finished third in rank his Tiger year. He was/is proud of that for not knowing anything - didn't even know about this site. If it were done as a pack, he might have been lucky to finish 5-8 spots above dead last (30th?).

He felt good about doing his best against his peers in in his den. Might not have had that feeling if he was being judged against 5th graders. Some of the older boys did try to rag onhim, he didn't care because he wasn't racing them per say.

I've seen races run where the scouts are mixed up ( positions/trophies are still handed out by rank level ) by the software so you never know who you are racing den wise. Boys stay involved as they never know when they are racing. Bad thing is, they never truly know how they are doing since they are racing against boys from all other ranks and not being scored against them. (That always seemed weird to me - goes back to that whole I never lost a heat thing, why didn't I win.)

[SharkBait]

We also rank by race and are contemplating a pack race this year. We have 48 kids and a 4 lane track. GPRM will tell us who the fastest racers are in each rank as well as overall in the pack. Thus, we can still give out den trophies. However, I see the point of not knowing which cars are the fastest in your den until the end. The reason why I'm thinking about a pack race is that it keeps everyone interested from beginning to end. For this size pack and track, can anyone guess how often an individual car would be racing? Is it every 5th race, every 10th race...? My fear is that the kids might get bored in between races. With the rank racing, a car would race every other race or so for about 20 minutes, but then would have to be entertained in other ways for the rest of the night.