Eliminating the Grand Finals round... good or bad idea?

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Ricerocket00
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Eliminating the Grand Finals round... good or bad idea?

Post by Ricerocket00 »

Last night I had a meeting with the other leaders of our Cub Scout Pack. One problem we have always had is that after the first round of racing is over (each boy races on each of the 6 lanes) everyone who doesn't qualify for the Grand Finals round packs up and heads home. Consequently, only the top 12 are usually there to watch and cheer. Our Pack consists of over 110 boys, and we had 81 cars show up. By the time the first round is over, everyone is pretty tired. Even running the races as quickly as possible, it still takes close to 2 hours to run everything through. Their recommendation was to simply award trophies to the top racers (we trophy the top 12 places). I couldn't come up with a good reason why not to run the race this way. It wouldn't have changed the top 3, but further back, there was some shuffling. I would love to hear everyone's take on the pros and cons of running things this way. I think it would be great to have the whole pack there to see the awards handed out.
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Re: Eliminating the Grand Finals round... good or bad idea?

Post by dna1990 »

Do you race by rank, or everyone at once?

I assume scoring based on time, correct?

When you say 2 hours, do you mean with a Grand Finals or just the first round when everyone got tired?

We raced 88 scouts (on a four lane track) in 79 minutes, and that was with a total of 21 minutes downtime between ranks. Now loading a 6-laner will take longer, but do you have any hard stats on how fast you are really getting them down track? Is there any room for improvement in the staging/organizing of cars to the track? I think 6 lanes could amplify any inefficiencies you may have.

We run a single Grand Final round for Pack Champ, advancing the single top time from each rank. Over the past three years I have access to the data for, no placement changes occured from their time averages when they raced in the rank level round. Since we only run four, it goes by fairly quick and everyone likes to see the top fellows get four more runs on the track, even if the outcome is predictable.

I would not be in favor of re-running the top three from each rank (as I assume you are doing). The Grand Finals becomes just a long repeat. Of course with six races in round one and six more in finals - you do begin to tax each car more to see how 'consistent' it is, rewarding the more careful builder. But as you noted, no changes to placement occured at the top.

Our Turtle race (slowest from each rank advances) is what keeps our crowd gathered and enthused. Folks really cheer for that one for some reason. Underdog-itis I think. We also run Siblings and Adults as the final checks are being done to the Trophy winners, this too keeps the crowd enthused via brothers and sisters and dads.

Do you race on a Saturday or one evening? Do you check-in the same day? If you break up check-in to a night before that too can help spread out the time folks feels they are there.

Is the room small? People get more anxious in a smaller room or shorter ceiling. Any snacks provided or sold? Anything organized to keep little siblings at bay? Folks get antsy to go when they are surrounded by little ones running amuck.
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Re: Eliminating the Grand Finals round... good or bad idea?

Post by gpraceman »

If running a timed race there really isn't much to be gained by doing another round of racing. There might be a slight shuffling of the standings from round to round, but often times not.

If scoring by points, then it is a different animal since in the next round the opponents will be changing significantly and thus the possible finish order of the heats.
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Re: Eliminating the Grand Finals round... good or bad idea?

Post by PWD_addict »

dna-how does your turtle race work? Who wins? The slowest? I like the idea.

Our Pinewood Derby is an afternoon long event 12:30-4:30. We race by ranks and lose the boys from the previous ranks but it's still a really fun time. We have Grand Finals (top 1 from each rank--another story on that) and it's pretty well attended. Cubs want to see how their den-mates do in the Finals. We race in 8 lanes so each rank takes about 30 minutes to complete.
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Re: Eliminating the Grand Finals round... good or bad idea?

Post by Ricerocket00 »

6 lane track. The entire Pack competes (not broken down into ranks). Our check in is the same day. I have considered making check in Friday night, but we spend most of the evening Friday night setting the track up. We are in a gym, so plenty of space, and we do have a concession stand.

We base the rankings from times. You take 6 runs, and your slowest time is thrown out.

I guess the main reason we've always done a Grand Finals is just to give the top 12 (used to be the top 6) a few more runs.
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Re: Eliminating the Grand Finals round... good or bad idea?

Post by ohiofitter »

Ricerocket00 This has been our pack races for the past five years...................Everyone wants to go home or were other.....So this year because the PWD chairman was tired of lack of attendance after all the racing was over we handed out trophy's at the end of the weblo's event..............After that was our race for overall I think this year as the kid that didn't place were picking up there cars the parents of a lot of these kids were watching the overall race........But I know there were more parents watching the races than in the past :D
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Re: Eliminating the Grand Finals round... good or bad idea?

Post by dna1990 »

Addict, yes our Turtle is based on slowest.

You have to finish all four of your races (no DNFs) and then we advance the slowest from each cub rank into a Turtle Final. Again a four heat race (once per lane), the racer with the slowest average without any DNFs is the Turtle winner.

It changes a little every year, but we get a actual turtle figurine and mount it to a regular trophy stand or a plaque.

For some reason (maybe they are going slow enough for people to actually 'anticipate' the outcome) or just rooting for an underdog - more cheers erupt in the Turtle final than most of the whole day.
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Re: Eliminating the Grand Finals round... good or bad idea?

Post by dna1990 »

I guess my thought is to make the race run as efficient as possible. Some folks will always have less interest and only be there for their own son's race. Folks who are 'into it' a little will always stay for the whole thing. Kinda like traffic maybe, I can understand a road repair that blocks off a lane - but if I drive by two miles of dead lane only to see one person working at the end and ten sitting in their truck....well that is more than Lipitor can fix.

One other thing we do is race in reverse rank order. Meaning Webelos, Bear, Wolf, then Tiger. This allows the younger boys (younger patience) to arrive slightly later in the morning if they prefer.

We setup the night before in conjuction with check-in. We have enough volunteers (thankfully) to make this happen. I think 'standing' in line Saturday morning to check-in (and for some make repairs, etc), and then to sit down and watch 90 or so heats, is probably too much for most.

Rice, if you race 'all together', is the spread pretty even? Meaning using like a Perfect-n where any given racer will have one heat near the beginning, some evenly disbursed thru the middle, and one near the end. If so that means the folks who want (or need) to just watch their son race has to endure thru all the entries, correct?

Maybe racing by rank would be something to try. Once their rank is done (and they have a sense of what their time is) they could exit quietly if they prefer.

My thought is that if you have an audience, and one person is getting antsy and starts looking at their watch, grumbling to themselevs, etc - this has a tendancy to spread. Folks who were content just a few minutes ago now realize they too are bored or whatever. Distract the person that is grumbly (good MC, snack bar, quick pace) or allow them a way to exit before their patience wears out and spreads to someone else.

A change for us this year was to incorporate our Judge's Design awards into the race schedule. So if Billy wins Best Paint Job, in one of the heats Billy is in, we show a picture of his car and announce his award. I think this really helped spice up the repetitive nature of 3-second zips of cars going by. This also 'brought the audience in' closer, in being able to see a car much better on the big screen, versus just being a small block of wood up on a track, barely able to tell your own son's car from that distance. This took alot of prep work and some software skills, and it needs some refinement to make it smoother for next year.

Why do Nascar races have so many graphics and fancy TV effects? Because to most (not me, but some :wink: ) cars going around in a circle for hours is boring. Anything you can do with the MC on the mike, or up on a projection screen somewhere, is probably a good way to keep more folks engaged.
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Re: Eliminating the Grand Finals round... good or bad idea?

Post by boss429 »

Ricerocket00 wrote:I think it would be great to have the whole pack there to see the awards handed out.
We hand out the awards at the next pack meeting - which incidently is the very next night (by design). We hand out all awards that night including the place awards and the appearance awards. We usually have a real good turnout for that pack meeting. :)
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Re: Eliminating the Grand Finals round... good or bad idea?

Post by Ricerocket00 »

Boss429 - That is a great idea. Might have to incorporate that next year!
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Re: Eliminating the Grand Finals round... good or bad idea?

Post by Bathtub »

Being from Texas I've noted that my current pack, along with two others here noted that they race ranks, then an overall with the 1'st place cars.(Ours is Double Elim. ranks then Single overall)..At our District Race we run ranks, double elimination (not sure if I like it) then the top four in each rank run a single elimination to pick the top four in the district.

I am in the process of forming a new cub unit and am really considering changing how our new unit runs it's pack race. We'll be small to start and will probably only have a 2 lane track, not a bad thing as the district track is a two lane best...May not ever get big enough to need a three lane track. So, I've kicked around the idea of running ranks, double elimination with a few turtles....I really like the idea above of advancing the turtles to an overall, maybe the lowest two. What I'd like to do on the fast cars is advance the top four. Double elimination to declare pack winners and Turtle. What I've seen from the district is that by advancing the top 4 rank in district to the overall we have a whole lot more folks sticking around for the races...Another thing that I'm mentally working on is some kind of award for the most supportive Den/Pack at the finals. I heard a comment at District this year that alot of the boys did not stick around after being eliminated.

Thoughts?

Comments?

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Re: Eliminating the Grand Finals round... good or bad idea?

Post by gpraceman »

Bathtub wrote:We'll be small to start and will probably only have a 2 lane track, not a bad thing as the district track is a two lane best...May not ever get big enough to need a three lane track.
I'd take a 3 lane track over a 2 lane track any day, regardless of how few racers there are. Seeing 3 cars go down the track is far more exciting than two. You can actually push through more runs down the track for everyone in the same amount of scheduled racing time, since it really only takes a few more seconds to load that one extra car.

IMO, the only thing better than a 3 lane track is a 4 lane track! I don't recommend anything larger than a 4 lane.

With smaller numbers of racers, just give them more runs down each lane of the track. As the number of racers grow, just reduce the number of runs down the track, as necessary to keep the race from going too long. So, basically, I think it is better for an organization to grow into a track with more lanes than for an organization to outgrow a 2 lane track and then need to spend even more money than they originally would have for the track with more lanes, in order to add another lane (extra cost of getting new cross braces and a new start gate -- on top of the cost for the additional lane pieces).
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Re: Eliminating the Grand Finals round... good or bad idea?

Post by Bathtub »

gpraceman wrote:I'd take a 3 lane track over a 2 lane track any day, regardless of how few racers there are. Seeing 3 cars go down the track is far more exciting than two. You can actually push through more runs down the track for everyone in the same amount of scheduled racing time, since it really only takes a few more seconds to load that one extra car.

IMO, the only thing better than a 3 lane track is a 4 lane track! I don't recommend anything larger than a 4 lane.

With smaller numbers of racers, just give them more runs down each lane of the track. As the number of racers grow, just reduce the number of runs down the track, as necessary to keep the race from going too long. So, basically, I think it is better for an organization to grow into a track with more lanes than for an organization to outgrow a 2 lane track and then need to spend even more money than they originally would have for the track with more lanes, in order to add another lane (extra cost of getting new cross braces and a new start gate -- on top of the cost for the additional lane pieces).
Thanks, I was thinking about a 3 lane track...My most prefered idea was to have 3 lane with timer and your software which would allow for mulitply runs in each lane. Getting that paid for right out of the gate might be a challenge, however I know someone that is good at raising funds.... How do most new units go about raising money for things like this...
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Re: Eliminating the Grand Finals round... good or bad idea?

Post by gpraceman »

Bathtub wrote:How do most new units go about raising money for things like this...
Our pack does a bang up job on popcorn sales, so one year the proceeds went towards a new track and timer.
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Re: Eliminating the Grand Finals round... good or bad idea?

Post by Ricerocket00 »

I agree with gpraceman. We hve a wonderful Popcrn Kernel (my wife!) who helped our Pack go from $13,000 in sales 2 years ago to $40,000 in popcorn sales last year! This allowed us to purchase a brand new 6 lane, 49 foot Best Track with ALL the bells and whistles!
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